Are you for or against death penalty?

[Awol]

Do the people advocating a violent death, also think Islamic states are barbaric? Because that would be a little hypocritical.

That depends very much on the crime and the relevant punishment. Take Iran for example, stoning a young girl to death for being raped is barbaric imo. Hanging Harold Shipman for killing over 200 people would not be barbaric, it would be a fair return for his work.

Personally I don't find the issue as black and white as some people here are trying to paint it but understand why most are opposed on principle.

[Bazdavies79]

It would make no difference to crime figures, the streets would be no safer. So why do it? An eye for an eye, that's the only reason.....and that's a principal I'm totally opposed to, especially if killing is involved.

[villab0y]

It would make no difference to crime figures, the streets would be no safer. So why do it? An eye for an eye, that's the only reason.....and that's a principal I'm totally opposed to, especially if killing is involved.

I believe it would make a difference.

Someone who goes out molesting children knows if they get caught they'll fce maybe 10yrs and be put on the register..

I think they might re consider knowing they face execution.

Sme for muderers, rapists etc.

[mjmooney]

It would make no difference to crime figures, the streets would be no safer. So why do it? An eye for an eye, that's the only reason.....and that's a principal I'm totally opposed to, especially if killing is involved.

I believe it would make a difference.

Someone who goes out molesting children knows if they get caught they'll fce maybe 10yrs and be put on the register..

I think they might re consider knowing they face execution.

Sme for muderers, rapists etc.

I very much doubt it. You assume that people make rational decisions, based upon likely outcomes. If that were the case nobody would ever drive recklessly, or have unprotected sex, or smoke cigarettes. Most of us work on the self-delusional basis of "It won't happen to me". And that's "normal", rational people, not murderers and rapists.

If somebody is in a violent rage, or in the grip of obsessive sexual urges, they are not weighing up likely outcomes.

What's more, I find that argument as worrying as I do the idea that religion is what gives us our moral codes. The idea that if it weren't for the fear of punishment (by the courts or by some "god") we'd all be going around thieving, raping and killing is, frankly, bizarre.

[Bazdavies79]

It would make no difference to crime figures, the streets would be no safer. So why do it? An eye for an eye, that's the only reason.....and that's a principal I'm totally opposed to, especially if killing is involved.

I believe it would make a difference.

Someone who goes out molesting children knows if they get caught they'll fce maybe 10yrs and be put on the register..

I think they might re consider knowing they face execution.

Sme for muderers, rapists etc.

Wow, you'd kill a paedophile and a rapist? Well I'm happy to say that that would never happen, I wouldn't want to live in a country like that. I think paedophilia is a mental illness so I'm morally opposed to that and rape is never black and white.....how that would work is anybody's guess.

As for murder? well how much of the overall crime in the uk is premeditated murder, a very low percentage I'd guess...I don't think the death penalty would stop the psychopath or the random stabbing....in fact don't numerous studies show that to be the case?

I'd rather us tackle the 99% of petty crime that goes on in the real world, not the very small percentage of terrible crimes that get in the news. I'd like to tackle the problem at the root....and the root cause is almost always poverty.

[Clarry]

It would make no difference to crime figuresWhat's more, I find that argument as worrying as I do the idea that religion is what gives us our moral codes. The idea that if it weren't for the fear of punishment (by the courts or by some "god") we'd all be going around thieving, raping and killing is, frankly, bizarre.

I didn't smoke as a kid because I was convinced that I would be sent to borstal if caught!

[World_Domination]

People are not scared of being caught or going to jail. They dont fear God and they dont fear the justice system anymore.

If the death penalty had never been abolished would we have such big violent crime on the streets today ? or even gangs coming to this country to pray on the vunerable ?

I think not. Is it civilised to allow society to desend into a free for all ?

[villab0y]

It would make no difference to crime figures, the streets would be no safer. So why do it? An eye for an eye, that's the only reason.....and that's a principal I'm totally opposed to, especially if killing is involved.

I believe it would make a difference.

Someone who goes out molesting children knows if they get caught they'll fce maybe 10yrs and be put on the register..

I think they might re consider knowing they face execution.

Sme for muderers, rapists etc.

Wow, you'd kill a paedophile and a rapist? Well I'm happy to say that that would never happen, I wouldn't want to live in a country like that. I think paedophilia is a mental illness so I'm morally opposed to that and rape is never black and white.....how that would work is anybody's guess.

As for murder? well how much of the overall crime in the uk is premeditated murder, a very low percentage I'd guess...I don't think the death penalty would stop the psychopath or the random stabbing....in fact don't numerous studies show that to be the case?

I'd rather us tackle the 99% of petty crime that goes on in the real world, not the very small percentage of terrible crimes that get in the news. I'd like to tackle the problem at the root....and the root cause is almost always poverty.

So cause murderers and kiddie fiddlers get in the paper they're not in the real world?

I wouldnt say poverty has anything to do with murder, rape, paedo's or the random stabbing you mention.

[ender4]

People are not scared of being caught or going to jail. They dont fear God and they dont fear the justice system anymore.

If the death penalty had never been abolished would we have such big violent crime on the streets today ? or even gangs coming to this country to pray on the vunerable ?

I think not. Is it civilised to allow society to desend into a free for all ?

exactly.

In a civilised society, those that are not civilised should be taken out of society.

[Bazdavies79]

So cause murderers and kiddie fiddlers get in the paper they're not in the real world?

I wouldnt say poverty has anything to do with murder, rape, paedo's or the random stabbing you mention.

They are in the real world, but the crimes which need to be tackled which will make a difference just wouldn't come under the death penalty. It's tackling those crimes which would make the streets safer in real terms and that's what I care about.

I'll also reiterate rape and paedophilia are not going to be solved by a death penalty nor is it a correct punishment IMO. It wouldn't be workable with rape and paedophilia is a mental illness IMO.

On your second point I'd imagine there is a connection between poverty and random stabbings and poverty and crime in general. Tackling that issue is where we can make the real difference, not just some airy fairy ill thought out idea about a one stop 'hang em all' solution.

[Condimentalist]

No. It's not the state's job to be executing people. We've come further than that.

[Awol]

So cause murderers and kiddie fiddlers get in the paper they're not in the real world?

I wouldnt say poverty has anything to do with murder, rape, paedo's or the random stabbing you mention.

They are in the real world, but the crimes which need to be tackled which will make a difference just wouldn't come under the death penalty. It's tackling those crimes which would make the streets safer in real terms and that's what I care about.

I'll also reiterate rape and paedophilia are not going to be solved by a death penalty nor is it a correct punishment IMO. It wouldn't be workable with rape and paedophilia is a mental illness IMO.

On your second point I'd imagine there is a connection between poverty and random stabbings and poverty and crime in general. Tackling that issue is where we can make the real difference, not just some airy fairy ill thought out idea about a one stop 'hang em all' solution.

Your point about lower level crime is more than valid but I don't think anyone on this thread has argued for "hang em all" solution at all. Also on paedophilia I think you are confusing mental illness with being an evil ****. Anyone who ruins a child for life and takes their innocence in that way fully deserves to have their neck stretched. The re-offending rate alone justifies it to protect the young in society. They do it because they want to imo not because they can't help it.

[villab0y]

The illness argument is just an excuse if you ask me.

[Jon]

The idea that if it weren't for the fear of punishment (by the courts or by some "god") we'd all be going around thieving, raping and killing is, frankly, bizarre.

indeed Mike.

Surely an advanced and progressive society should be based upon more than simply the fear of breaking the rules/laws, and the consequences of that.

if beating someone to a pulp became legal tomorrow, i wouldn't simply take my baseball bat onto the streets, and beat up those i don't like.

IMHO, out actions are not solely governed by the fear or punishment/retribution/revenge.

For some maybe they are, but surely we live by our own moral code/judgements too?

[Jon]

People are not scared of being caught or going to jail. They dont fear God and they dont fear the justice system anymore.

If the death penalty had never been abolished would we have such big violent crime on the streets today ? or even gangs coming to this country to pray on the vunerable ?

I think not. Is it civilised to allow society to desend into a free for all ?

exactly.

In a civilised society, those that are not civilised should be taken out of society.

so you'd descend to their level, and kill them.

how civilised of you ......

[sellyoakvilla]

No one deserves the death penalty...absolutely no one...even if they have committed murder themselves, they should just be given the life sentence, that will **** them up pretty rough and they'd wish they hadn't have done it. Oh, and by life sentence, I don't mean 6 years.

[Jon]

No. It's not the state's job to be executing people. We've come further than that.

one would hope so Patrick, but for some, it seems not .....

[Richard]

I think there is a huge argument to be had for a review of sentencing overall to be honest.

[Awol]

The idea that if it weren't for the fear of punishment (by the courts or by some "god") we'd all be going around thieving, raping and killing is, frankly, bizarre.

indeed Mike.

Surely an advanced and progressive society should be based upon more than simply the fear of breaking the rules/laws, and the consequences of that.

if beating someone to a pulp became legal tomorrow, i wouldn't simply take my baseball bat onto the streets, and beat up those i don't like.

IMHO, out actions are not solely governed by the fear or punishment/retribution/revenge.

For some maybe they are, but surely we live by our own moral code/judgements too?

Jon I think you have an admirable but misplaced faith in human nature. The veneer of society is very very thin and when the threat of sanction for your actions is removed people can do unspeakable things. Ask any squaddie who served in the Balkans during the wars there, it certainly changed my entire belief of what society really is - a means to control the animal that lives just below the surface and is kept in check by the implicit threat of punishment.

Just because you wouldn't take a bat to those you didn't like doesn't mean they wouldn't do so unfortunately. (Not that I could imagine anyone harbouring those feelings toward you obviously :winkold: )

[El Zen]

I very much doubt it. You assume that people make rational decisions, based upon likely outcomes. If that were the case nobody would ever drive recklessly, or have unprotected sex, or smoke cigarettes. Most of us work on the self-delusional basis of "It won't happen to me". And that's "normal", rational people, not murderers and rapists.

If somebody is in a violent rage, or in the grip of obsessive sexual urges, they are not weighing up likely outcomes.

What's more, I find that argument as worrying as I do the idea that religion is what gives us our moral codes. The idea that if it weren't for the fear of punishment (by the courts or by some "god") we'd all be going around thieving, raping and killing is, frankly, bizarre.

Excellent post, Mike.

The act of murder is rarely committed based on rational decissions. If every human action was rational, 15 years in prison for murder would probably be a sufficiant deterrent.

In my opinion, every human life has a value of its own. Now, that's not to say that there aren't some individuals who can't live in society. Some deeply disturbed individuals should live in isolation, not out of revenge but because they are a constant danger to themselves and to others. This, however, should be subject to ongoing medical evaluation. The courts should only make the option of a life in isolation a possibility for medical personel to use if necessary. If a person is fit to live a 'normal' life after he or she have served their time, even a murderer is worth another chance.

Obviously, I'm strongly against capital punishment. As a society, we cannot make taking the life of a human being the law. Ian has already quoted Gandhi, but I'll do it again as I believe it to be absolutely true. An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind. The death penalty is wrong, both morally and even from the most utilitarian of perspectives.