Player Discipline

[TRO]

10 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Every time I watch Villa these days we seem to get kicked off the park by the opposition who don’t seem to pick up any cards and then we seem to get carded for our first offence. Several Wolves players escaped cards on Saturday for cynical fouls. We had 3 cards from 11 fouls and they had 4 cards from 19 fouls.

Yesterday, Arsenal conceded 20 fouls and only picked up 2 yellow cards. City didn’t get any from 9 fouls. Odegaard should have been booked about 3 times but didn’t get carded. Cards can really impact the flow of a game but we always seem to get fairly harshly treated compared to other teams.

Am I being paranoid here or do other people think we are being harshly treated? Are there any stats which would bring some context to this? It would be great to know the average fouls per card for every premier league team. I know that this doesn’t tell the whole story but it would be interesting to see.

No, you are not imo.

I'm not sure what it is, but we are anything but a physical side....so something is patently wrong.

I see what you see....teams with x rated challenges, shirt pulling, blatant pushes, and they get a blind eye, from the refs......We make a butterfly challenge and we get punished.

This is tricky, to get right.

Maybe the coaches, need to get them to be more stealthy, and sneaky, in the challenge.

[briny_ear]

42 minutes ago, TRO said:

That's the question.

Its a joke....How on earth could the coaches suggest, being less physical....less physical and we would emulate testimonial games....If we back off anymore, we'll be in the dressing room.

Those stats are really concerning, and attention needs to be brought to the  PGMOL.

Those Stats are not representative of the way Aston Villa play.....imo.

I don’t think I was suggesting being less physical. 

But there may be issues about poor decision making on behalf of the most booked players. Certainly that seems to be an issue with Duran and Zaniolo. Konsa remains a puzzle to be solved.

[DJBOB]

There is something to it, especially when you look at who's challenging them. Zaniolo and Duran - in particular - are comically silly the way they get yellow cards.

Some of the individual numbers are astounding too. Rice at CDM with only 3 yellow cards. Dias with 0. Szoboslai with only 1 yellow in 23 fouls.

Then again - if you look at the profile of who's competing for those tackles - it might just come down to the physically able players winning the ball more often while our smaller players have to really put in a challenge to get the ball, and as a result - get an abnormally high amount of yellow cards as a ratio to fouls. Makes sense that you see certain kinds of players on opposing teams too with a decent yellow card ratio too - Mac Allister and Endo aren't known for being bruisers but have to cover a lot of ground in the middle of the park. Bernardo Silva isn't winning a lot of duels soon but is asked to play in the center a lot.

So it might just be your point @TRO - Villa are a lightweight team in general and get more yellows because we have to be clambering or hacking the other players to win the ball.

Edited April 1 by DJBOB

[TRO]

Just now, briny_ear said:

I don’t think I was suggesting being less physical. 

But there may be issues about poor decision making on behalf of the most booked players. Certainly that seems to be an issue with Duran and Zaniolo. Konsa remains a puzzle to be solved.

No, I know, Brin....sorry if you thought, I suggested so.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

There is something to it, especially when you look at who's challenging them. Zaniolo and Duran - in particular - are comically silly the way they get yellow cards.

Some of the individual numbers are astounding too. Rice at CDM with only 3 yellow cards. Dias with 0. Szoboslai with only 1 yellow in 23 fouls.

Then again - if you look at the profile of who's competing for those tackles - it might just come down to the physically able players winning the ball more often while our smaller players have to really put in a challenge to get the ball, and as a result - get an abnormally high amount of yellow cards as a ratio to fouls. Makes sense that you see certain kinds of players on opposing teams too with a decent yellow card ratio too - Mac Allister is not knowing for being a bruiser. Neither is Endo. Bernardo Silva isn't winning a lot of duels soon.

So it might just be your point @TRO - Villa are a lightweight team in general and get more yellows because we have to be clambering or hacking the other players to win the ball.

I tend to think your last line, is the most appropriate....If you have to muster, your weight behind a challenge as opposed to stronger players leaning in and getting the desired result.....Refs pick up on that....Dan Burn as example.

[DJBOB]

Bank holiday and too much time on my hands.

Konsa home vs Burnley yellow - protesting a decision that should have been a corner to us.

Konsa away at United yellow - yellow for taking down Garnacho on the counter

Konsa away at Brentford yellow - yellow for the goal fracas after Watkins scored

Konsa home vs Fulham yellow - booked for time wasting

Konsa home vs Brighton yellow - yellow for a late challenge

2 yellows for bad challenges and 3 yellows for dissent/time wasting - makes sense now.

[briny_ear]

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Bank holiday and too much time on my hands.

Konsa home vs Burnley yellow - protesting a decision that should have been a corner to us.

Konsa away at United yellow - yellow for taking down Garnacho on the counter

Konsa away at Brentford yellow - yellow for the goal fracas after Watkins scored

Konsa home vs Fulham yellow - booked for time wasting

Konsa home vs Brighton yellow - yellow for a late challenge

2 yellows for bad challenges and 3 yellows for dissent/time wasting - makes sense now.

Impressive forensic work there!

I haven’t done anything like that in relation to the booking stats so I may be completely wrong but I do get the impression that we have picked up a good number of yellow cards this season for silly incidents that could easily have been avoided, Digne got booked yesterday for an incident away from the action of play, presumably dissent. I don’t think many people even noticed. Pointless and potentially damaging for the side.

[Radness]

17 hours ago, VillanousOne said:

It's hard not to have a claret and blue googles on, but the amount of games I see Luiz pulled up for a foul for what seems like very little, yet I see him man handled, grabbed, pushed down and get nothing over and over and over.

Unfortunately he wears the fouls, gets frustrated and commits a very obvious get-even tackle and gets carded for it.

[Teale's 'tache]

To me, Konsa picking up 5 yellows in 11 fouls does kind of make sense. He doesn't make a lot of fouls, in fact, he only fouls when he has to, which is why the ratio is so high. When he fouls, it's usually of the professional, definitely going to be yellow-carded, kind. Which is not a bad thing at all, it shows how in control he usually is of his emotions and his awareness of game situations.

On a broader scale, I don't think there's any conspiracy going on, the bigger teams get a bit more leeway, always have and always will and that's as much down to human nature than anything more spurious.

For the rest of us, it seems pretty random. That's why it is so difficult to take any of these stats all that seriously, referees are not consistent in-game for the same team, let alone from team to team, game to game, or referee to referee. It's all so wildly inconsistent it's difficult to know what really constitutes a booking anymore. The whole Tonali and Paqueta sagas do make you wonder if there's a bit of spot-fixing involved on the player side, and who's to say a ref hasn't been given a quota of cards to be given out in a game, it's happened in other countries, there's no reason it couldn't happen here.

I don't think we are particularly dirty, or clumsy (though tiredness of so many games may excuse it). We are an easy target in many ways as we don't seem to try and pressure referees as much as some other teams/players, but I'd imagine that partly comes from Emery and his no-excuse culture. Our players aren't allowed to use poor referees as an excuse. I'd rather play that way than have a team of Odegaards/Hendersons endlessly harassing a referee. We try to let our football do the talking and that is fine by me.

I just think the standard of refereeing, in general, is awful and getting worse, and VAR is not helping, it's only shining a light on just how bad it is.

[bobzy]

I think we commit a lot of cynical fouls/time wasting/kicking the ball away type situations rather than accumulative bookings.  I can only really think of Luiz and McGinn who falls into the latter category... and even then, some of their cards are just for cynical fouls.  I don't think there's anything inherently anti-Villa or pro-top sides...

...but as @Teale's 'tache says, the variance between referee to referee, game to game, et al is huge.  Referees get given a brief before big games on how to "let them flow" ("big games" being anything from 2 top sides playing, 2 relegation threatened sides playing, local derbies etc) and "manage the occasion" so I think challenges in those matches, which would often result in bookings, often get given more leeway.  In this regard, in would make sense that Man City vs Arsenal saw fewer bookings being made when, typically, you'd expect to see yellows.

I don't think this is the right way to do things at all, but it definitely happens.

[delboy54]

I think that most footy fans want consistency in refs. It shouldn't matter who is playing who.

[MotoMkali]

23 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Wonder if the coaching staff look at these statistics and talk to the players about them?

Certainly someone should be having a word with Konsa - by no means a dirty player so how come he’s picked up 5 yellows from 11 fouls?

Think konsa has had 2 for dissent. 

[M_Afro]

Last night, Utd conceded 15 fouls, gave away 2 penalties and one of their players very aggressively told the touch judge to FO. They received one yellow card. If that had been another team, I’m sure they would have received 4/5 yellow cards. It was ridiculous. The same ref gave Chelsea 3 yellows from 7 fouls. The inconsistency is insane.

[HongKongVillan]

22 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

Last night, Utd conceded 15 fouls, gave away 2 penalties and one of their players very aggressively told the touch judge to FO. They received one yellow card. If that had been another team, I’m sure they would have received 4/5 yellow cards. It was ridiculous. The same ref gave Chelsea 3 yellows from 7 fouls. The inconsistency is insane.

Its madness they get away with it so much - and no one is actually looking into. You would have thought by now other clubs will flag this sort of thing to the Useless Monkeys Association (PGMOL).

 

Luiz is on 9 yellow cards already, and Maguire i think its only on 4!

[david-avfc]

According to whoscored stats we have the 3rd most bookings but only the 11th most fouls, and we’re fouled more than we foul others. Something seems amiss doesn’t it.

[DJBOB]

5 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Last night, Utd conceded 15 fouls, gave away 2 penalties and one of their players very aggressively told the touch judge to FO. They received one yellow card. If that had been another team, I’m sure they would have received 4/5 yellow cards. It was ridiculous. The same ref gave Chelsea 3 yellows from 7 fouls. The inconsistency is insane.

This kind of goes to my point though that when you look up and down the Chelsea squad - they're not a big squad.

Benoit and Disasi are big lads but their midfield is small. Caicedo and Gallagher in particular are way over the edge when it comes to reckless tackles.

The yellow card ratio is very high among midfielders so it makes sense that Chelsea will get a lot of yellow cards between Enzo, Caicedo, Gallagher, Palmer, Mudryk etc.

United in comparison have a much bigger lineup.

Refs unfairly (or maybe fairly depending on the type of tackle) the smaller players.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, david-avfc said:

According to whoscored stats we have the 3rd most bookings but only the 11th most fouls, and we’re fouled more than we foul others. Something seems amiss doesn’t it.

yes it does....and the serious fouls, we commit are like rocking horse manure.....our yellows are for innocuous, attempts at challenges.....its an absolute joke, for anyone the think or suggest, we are a dirty side....on the contrary....but I accept the stats suggest so.

We are not in any way, shape or form a dirty side.....but we are a clumsy side in the challenge, and I think this catches the refs eye, sadly.

Defending is a hobby horse of mine, mainly because I think, there is room for improvement in that dep't as a whole.....but our conviction in the "one on one" challenge is questionable....I see quite often, opposition players, winning those duels....it smacks of puny and lightweight, but I think it's by unskilled individuals, trying to do a job, they are not best suited to.

Before someone else mentions where we are in the league, and it's great.....but defending hasn't got us there, on the contrary, it has highlighted area's to improve.....I have no doubt in my mind, Unai is well aware of it.

Winning the ball consistently and competently, takes an enormous amount of skill, you then want them to make a penetrating pass to our colours......its so important to have players like that. For me it's boringly obvious.

When you have an abundance of attack minded players ( in terms of ratio's) in your squad and on top of that, the best defenders have long term injuries....you are left with game and loyal players trying to fill in....Its the job of the club to redress this imbalance.

 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Last night, Utd conceded 15 fouls, gave away 2 penalties and one of their players very aggressively told the touch judge to FO. They received one yellow card. If that had been another team, I’m sure they would have received 4/5 yellow cards. It was ridiculous. The same ref gave Chelsea 3 yellows from 7 fouls. The inconsistency is insane.

It seems to me, the teams with the big squads can take the risk.....its a trade off.

I see some ridiculous incidents in other games go unpunished......and some folk say, if they dealt with everyone, there would be nobody left on the pitch. Now if that is so, and I say if....it means that the refs are dealing selectively and on time quotas.

Teams like united, work on the basis of a "trade off"...risk the yellows for a concerted effort to bully your way back into the game.....you need strong and skilful players to counter that.

It seems in this world in general, if you commit enough misdemeanors....it becomes accepted as the Norm.

It seems a long time ago, where there was a stance and a will, to stamp things out.....ah well.

[Tomaszk]

Kamara, McGinn, Luiz.

8 league games missed by crucial, 90 minute, players. 

All stupid incidents. Luiz can be considered maybe slightly unlucky as I think he was waving his leg going for the ball. But THINK. There's 30 seconds left, you can turn and get back.

Anyway. Bang their bloody heads together Unai. The whole squad.

No more.

[HongKongVillan]

Another day, another small advantages gained by manure and spurs players for not getting the same consistency from officials.