Ratings & Reactions: Villa v Nottm Forest

[turvontour]

Just now, Annoyman said:

There were four goals and Watkins spent some time getting treatment for a knock in the back

There were three goals with zero VAR checks. Watkins was down for a minute or so.

I didn't know they add minutes on for all the goals. I thought that was just part of the match. 

[TheAuthority]

3 hours ago, allani said:

Good little piece on Bailey's performance today on MOTD and how influential he was.  Also good to see that he's up in third place in terms of minutes per goal contribution in the PL this season (at 88 mins) behind I think Haaland and Salah.  But I did chuckle about the fact that they appear to have missed the fact that Ollie is now top of the goal contributors pile.  An oversight because they were talking about Bailey?  Or for the conspiracy theorist in us - was it a deliberate choice to use a table on player contributions that had a Man City and Liverpool player at the top - rather than a different stat that now has a Villa player at the top????

Also no one ever mentions that Ollie is not a penalty taker like Haaland, Salah and Kane.

If you take away their penalties he’s probably the top striker in Europe*
 

*I have not verified this

Edited February 25 by TheAuthority

[ozvillafan]

6 hours ago, turvontour said:

There were three goals with zero VAR checks. Watkins was down for a minute or so.

I didn't know they add minutes on for all the goals. I thought that was just part of the match. 

Yeah, I don't get it either.

Second half had 2 goals and a raft of substitutions. Time added on? 4 mins. /shrug

[John]

I was more worried about us picking up a further injury, than I was about Forest stealing a point from us. A tremendous win and another winning run at Villa Park has begun folks. This really is some team that we currently have the pleasure of watching! 

 

[TRO]

17 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Who the **** are Man United.

The team that take points off us, when we outplay them.

[allani]

12 hours ago, tinker said:

Comparing us with villa teams of the past then I agree, I was looking at teams that challenge for the title, City , Arsenal and Liverpool,  that's where we need to be imo. I'm taking nothing away from how much we have improved,  its next to unbelievable tbh......but to get better we need to control games, especially when we are ahead.

We literally have the best record in the PL this season in terms of points "dropped" after taking the lead in matches.  According to data on transfermarkt these are the stats:

- Villa have taken the lead in 17 matches and won 16 - dropping 3 points

- Liverpool have taken the lead in 20 matches and won 18 - dropping 4 points

- Man Utd have taken the lead in 16 matches and won 14 - dropping 5 points

- Manchester City have taken the lead in 22 matches and won 18 - dopping 8 points

- Arsenal have taken the lead in 22 matches and won 18 - dropping 9 points

- Spurs have taken the lead in 21 matches and won 14 - dropping 18 points

This narrative about us bottling matches (which also came up on the match day thread where someone said that it "was killing us this season") is complete horse s***.  We are currently THE best team in the country this season at seeing out matches in which we go ahead.

Sure maybe at times we've made it a little bit more difficult than maybe it could have been - but Liverpool, United, Arsenal and City have all been ahead in matches this season and been clinging on at the end too. 

There's a lot we can and have to learn about how to "manage" matches or a season from teams who have a lot more recent experience of competing at this end of the table.  But the idea that we're bad at holding out and winning games when we are ahead is rubbish.  The area we probably need to improve is getting ahead in more matches - especially those when we are struggling or are under the cosh.

 

Edited February 25 by allani

[MakemineVanilla]

Villa were impressive for long periods of the game and less so at others.

Bailey's cheeky nutmeg to set up Watkins for his tap-in, started the party, but Villa's failure to defend a corner properly, energised Forest to fill Villa with doubt, and Nuno's instructions to his forwards to start their runs behind a couple of yards deeper, set the cat amongst the pigeons.

The loss of Torres at the break began to look fatal for Villa, but a Watkins-Bailey combination finally proved a knockout blow for Forest's hopes.

Once again VT's voters got it exactly right, with Bailey clearly man of the match, with very strong outings for McGinn and Luiz being not far behind.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, R.Bear said:

Fantastic first half performance, as good as we've been this season. Conceded a sloppy goal on HT and at 3-2 was looking precarious. Had we not won this game from 3-0 then I dread to think how we would get over it.

Thankfully we scored at a good time and were coasting for the remainder of the match. Very good solid win.

It wasn't sloppy....We just never competed for an aerial duel or the ball after that.....we have to fix this, in order to be taken as a serious threat by the neutrals.

We cannot have lofty ambitions, conceding goals as easy as we do......All teams concede goals, we know that, buts its the ease in which we do, that's the concern...we let teams back in far too easily.

against a better team, we could have been in trouble, yesterday, they found the initiative, just lacked quality, to execute it.

Edited February 25 by TRO

[The_Steve]

First goal JJ forgot how to mark. For the second goal, Cash is playing Gibbs-White on but I felt Dibu was too slow in trying to close it down. Totally avoidable and shows the importance of concentration. 

[allani]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

It wasn't sloppy....We never competed for an aerial duel.....we have to fix this, in order to be deemed a consistent team.

We cannot have lofty ambitions, conceding goals as easy as we do......All teams concede goals, we know that, buts its the ease in which we do, that's the concern.

Who cares when you can go up the other end and score 4???

Mainly a point made in jest.  But we're definitely set up to try and win matches 3-1 rather than 1-0. 

Forest's second goal was just a bad mistake by Cash dropping back out of the line (the rest of which did their job perfectly).  It will happen every now and again and given the way we play as long as we keep getting it right a lot more than we get it wrong it's nothing to worry about.  The defending corners thing is different and something that does need to be looked at.  Ollie's mistake yesterday of just leaving his zone before we'd won the first ball or dealt with the second is something we've seen a few times now (not necessarily from him).  Maybe it is a drawback of the zonal system but he (and Moreno) both pushed out leaving two men completely unmarked.  That's something that can be addressed without impacting on the way we are set up and the way we generally try and play.  I think it was the 9th goal we've conceded from corners this season - which is too many.

[allani]

6 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

First goal JJ forgot how to mark. For the second goal, Cash is playing Gibbs-White on but I felt Dibu was too slow in trying to close it down. Totally avoidable and shows the importance of concentration. 

I need to watch the first goal again - I'm sure it was Ollie that left his position rather than Ramsey.

I disagree about Emi being partially at fault for the second.  If the defensive line holds (which it did apart from Cash having a brain fart) then the only chance Forest have of scoring is someone pinging the ball into the top corner.  So Emi's job is to prevent that from happening.

[allani]

7 minutes ago, allani said:

I need to watch the first goal again - I'm sure it was Ollie that left his position rather than Ramsey.

I disagree about Emi being partially at fault for the second.  If the defensive line holds (which it did apart from Cash having a brain fart) then the only chance Forest have of scoring is someone pinging the ball into the top corner.  So Emi's job is to prevent that from happening.

Just watched it and I think that if either Ramsey doesn't let his man go or Ollie doesn't leave his position then we have a great chance of preventing the goal.  So yeah two mistakes and so not 100% on Ollie - although I still think if he holds his position then he's in a much, much better position to clear the danger from the ball that comes back across goal (as he's attacking the ball going away from his own goal).

[TRO]

 

I think the ease, with which the 2 goals against, get so easily dismissed, is naive.

 it worries me, when we seem to think, every player in the team has to be an attacking threat.....This is not aimed at Pau, because I think he is great.....but In order to reach the heights we are aiming for, some players have to have the superlatives aimed at them for defending.

It won't always be the case we can sweep teams aside.....we have to have a healthy balance of defensive competency....We cannot have 11 attackers and scratting around for defenders, when we haven't got the ball.......if we have ambitions to win things.

I don't want to be visiting St James's park, every season and entering in to a "shoot out" or Going to Old Trafford and  being "open season".......We have done great this season, its like 1977, with swashbuckling football....but if want to win things, we have to tighten up, particularly in our own area.

That 3-2 was unnecessary yesterday, and the team looked spooked, for a spell.....that's not the traits of a champions league challenging side.

We have to address this moving forward.

Edited February 25 by TRO

[AVTuco]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

I think the ease, with which the 2 goals against, get so easily dismissed, is naive.

 it worries me, when we seem to think, every player in the team has to be an attacking threat.....This is not aimed at Pau, because I think he is great.....but In order to reach the heights we are aiming for, some players have to have the superlatives aimed at them for defending.

It won't alway be the case we can sweep teams aside.....we have to have a healthy balance of defensive competency....We cannot have 11 attackers and scratting around for defenders, when we haven't got the ball.......if we have ambitions to win things.

I don't want to be visiting St James's park, every season and entering in to a "shoot out" or Going to Old Trafford and  being "open season".......We have done great this season, its like 1977, with swashbuckling football....but if want to win things, we have to tighten up, particularly in our own area.

That 3-2 was unnecessary yesterday, and the team looked spooked, for a spell.....that's not the traits of a champions league challenging side.

We have to address this moving forward.

We are missing our main defensive player in Konsa though. And another in Mings. Carlos is supposed to be defensive too, but he's not very good.

[allani]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

 

I think the ease, with which the 2 goals against, get so easily dismissed, is naive.

 it worries me, when we seem to think, every player in the team has to be an attacking threat.....This is not aimed at Pau, because I think he is great.....but In order to reach the heights we are aiming for, some players have to have the superlatives aimed at them for defending.

It won't alway be the case we can sweep teams aside.....we have to have a healthy balance of defensive competency....We cannot have 11 attackers and scratting around for defenders, when we haven't got the ball.......if we have ambitions to win things.

I don't want to be visiting St James's park, every season and entering in to a "shoot out" or Going to Old Trafford and  being "open season".......We have done great this season, its like 1977, with swashbuckling football....but if want to win things, we have to tighten up, particularly in our own area.

That 3-2 was unnecessary yesterday, and the team looked spooked, for a spell.....that's not the traits of a champions league challenging side.

We have to address this moving forward.

Sorry but I think the second goal was just one of those things that happens every now and again.  Every single Villa player on the pitch did their jobs perfectly - with the exception of Cash.  You can't set up the team on the assumption that someone's going to make a mistake or have the defensive line not hold just in case someone gets caught out.  It was a bad mistake by one player.

I do agree with you about our defending from corners though.  It definitely requires some work.  We don't win enough first headers and we don't seem to hold our defensive shape until we've dealt with either the first ball or the second.

However, I don't think that our balance is as out as you are suggesting it is.  You also have to take into account the fact that this season we seem to rarely have the chance to play the same Back 4 (let alone our first choice Back 4) in more than 2 straight matches.  Last season in particular our Back 4 looked superb - because we played a much more settled unit and they really clicked.  I suspect that part of the reason we've struggled more this season is that we've just not had those runs of matches where we've been able to field the same defenders every week.  I think we've also missed Mings as a leader at the back (although sometimes he needed to focus more on himself than those around him) - although Pau and Konsa seem to be developing more of that (in a slightly calmer way).

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, allani said:

Who cares when you can go up the other end and score 4???

Mainly a point made in jest.  But we're definitely set up to try and win matches 3-1 rather than 1-0. 

Forest's second goal was just a bad mistake by Cash dropping back out of the line (the rest of which did their job perfectly).  It will happen every now and again and given the way we play as long as we keep getting it right a lot more than we get it wrong it's nothing to worry about.  The defending corners thing is different and something that does need to be looked at.  Ollie's mistake yesterday of just leaving his zone before we'd won the first ball or dealt with the second is something we've seen a few times now (not necessarily from him).  Maybe it is a drawback of the zonal system but he (and Moreno) both pushed out leaving two men completely unmarked.  That's something that can be addressed without impacting on the way we are set up and the way we generally try and play.  I think it was the 9th goal we've conceded from corners this season - which is too many.

I was rather hoping you was.

Look its all about ambitions.....I remember the 1977 team, who was like us now.....a great watch and blew teams away, but they conceded easily and didn't win the league, finished 4th.....and the 1980/81 side wasn't so flamboyant, but more Robust, and we won the league and Euro cup....we tightened up from conceding 50 to 40

Now, many things go in to that, but my point is the 4 is great, but conceding 2 against a 16th placed side at Home, when we are in swashbuckling mood, should be thought provoking, if we have lofty ambitions to win things...not just swept under the carpet.

I don't think its a simple case of we will out score you.....because the time, I have been watching football, the goals can tend to dry up, or teams just shut up shop like Sheff Utd....it's not always easy to score.

Its harder to score, than be scored against....but our real dilemma is....the goals we concede are too easy for the opposition.

We are in 4th place with a 5 point cushion ( spurs game in hand) so right now we are in a good place, but to be analytical, we are out of kilter with the top 3 on goals conceded, but not so much on goals scored...sure much the same as Man U and Spurs, for goals against.

My main point is, we should be able to see, where we have to improve, as we are still WIP.

[allani]

4 minutes ago, AVTuco said:

We are missing our main defensive player in Konsa though. And another in Mings. Carlos is supposed to be defensive too, but he's not very good.

Yeah - I've lost a lot of confidence in Carlos.  I was hoping that he's be our defensive leader (even with Mings in the team) but he's not got that defensive discipline.  I do think we need someone who is better at winning the ball in the air though.  Most of our defenders are better when the ball is on the ground.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, AVTuco said:

We are missing our main defensive player in Konsa though. And another in Mings. Carlos is supposed to be defensive too, but he's not very good.

Yeah....I accept that, and for me, it shows.

Paradoxically, I think Lenglet has been pretty good.

but I ask, respectfully, would Konsa have cut out that aerial ball to the back post?......We lost another crucial one against United, where Maguire, just dominated, and another where McTominay powered one in.

My point is.....This scenario, is not rare, its happening regularly, so could we, moving forward, do better, in this area.

 

[allani]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I was rather hoping you was.

Look its all about ambitions.....I remember the 1977 team, who was like us now.....a great watch and blew teams away, but they conceded easily and didn't win the league, finished 4th.....and the 1980/81 side wasn't so flamboyant, but more Robust, and we won the league and Euro cup....we tightened up from conceding 50 to 40

Now, many things go in to that, but my point is the 4 is great, but conceding 2 against a 16th placed side at Home, when we are in swashbuckling mood, should be thought provoking, if we have lofty ambitions to win things...not just swept under the carpet.

I don't think its a simple case of we will out score you.....because the time, I have been watching football, the goals can tend to dry up, or teams just shut up shop like Sheff Utd....it's not always easy to score.

Its harder to score, than be scored against....but our real dilemma is....the goals we concede are too easy for the opposition.

We are in 4th place with a 5 point cushion ( spurs game in hand) so right now we are in a good place, but to be analytical, we are out of kilter with the top 3 on goals conceded, but not so much on goals scored...sure much the same as Man U and Spurs, for goals against.

My main point is, we should be able to see, where we have to improve, as we are still WIP.

Absolutely agree with this last point.  As I say I think it is important to recognise that our defence has been ravaged with a ridiculous number of injuries this season - I think most teams would struggle when they can barely play the same back 4 two weeks on the trot - let alone never being able to play their first choice back 4 (although it does have to be said that I am not quite sure what that would be - as I think our best defenders are probably Konsa, Mings, Pau and Digne but I'm not sure how that works as a back 4).

I think my biggest concern is probably us not winning enough aerial battles in our own box.  I was annoyed with the first goal yesterday as we've conceded in that fashion a few times now - our CBs should have won the first header and Ramsey/Ollie shouldn't have abandoned their defensive duties until the ball had been cleared.  Apart from that I think we were pretty good defensively.  Cash made one bad error - but apart from that the defensive line worked well.  I have to admit that my little river dropped out so I missed the Elanga chance (although on the replays I think it's far from certain that Emi wouldn't have dealt with that had he not put the shot wide).  The other "big" chance that we gave up when the player sliced the ball miles wide was almost certainly offside.

Last season we had one of the best defensive records in the league - I don't think that we've suddenly abandoned our defensive duties.  We're missing a strong aerial presence and we're struggling with a ridiculous number of injuries across our back line.  I don't know that Liverpool, Man City or Arsenal would cope with missing so many defenders for so much of the season.

[allani]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yeah....I accept that, and for me, it shows.

Paradoxically, I think Lenglet has been pretty good.

but I ask, respectfully, would Konsa have cut out that aerial ball to the back post?......We lost another crucial one against United, where Maguire, just dominated, and another where McTominay powered one in.

My point is.....This scenario, is not rare, its happening regularly, so could we, moving forward, do better, in this area.

 

Or even Mings.  I think it is fair to say that Mings, Pau, Konsa and Lenglet are all better with the ball at their feet than they are in the air.  (I've lost confidence that Carlos is good on the deck or in the air).