Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Tens of thousands of Israelis on Saturday protested their far-right government’s plans to overhaul the legal system, three days after parliament advanced a bill that would enable lawmakers to overturn a Supreme Court decision with a simple majority. https://apnews.com/article/politics-benjamin-netanyahu-tel-aviv-israel-6084a0737b4c5a732846164aa5592e0c Israel is on a trajectory to becoming undemocratic - it's a dark time for the country and folks are protesting. I'm interested in the dynamics of Israeli society - not knowing a great deal myself and would welcome those that do understand it to offer their candid thoughts on where it is going. The country as a nuclear power in my view has a large part to play on the world stage - yet it is remaining out of the Ukraine situation. Yet it is heavily funded by the USA, who are all in on Ukraine - why is this so. This thread has not been created to slag the country off - but to understand it better - so please no insults - although I'm sure free speech is allowed here so long as there's something credible to point to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted February 26, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 26, 2023 Using my free speech (as you put it), I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. You state it hasn't been created to "slag the country off" but you also state "it's a dark time for the country". I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, trekka said: Using my free speech (as you put it), I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. You state it hasn't been created to "slag the country off" but you also state "it's a dark time for the country". I'm confused. It is though - it is becoming undemocratic and there are mass protests. The government is far-right on the political spectrum. Personally I'm toward the left and would like to know how it has got to this position, mostly because I'm not fond of far-right politics. We also have a US politics thread, which did a great trade during Trump's presidency. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 you really wanna talk about Israel don't you 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 Just now, leemond2008 said: you really wanna talk about Israel don't you Yep - I think it's healthy to debate these things. And actually I was given a book on Tel Aviv recently, by an Israeli visitor and it all looked very nice - so it jars slightly when you see they're about to sack off their judicial system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mandy Lifeboats Posted February 26, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2023 Until humans stop believing in gods and stories written thousands of years ago Israel will not be a peaceful place. Which politicians are in power are irrelevant when they are all starting from the same flawed starting point. This applies to Israel and its enemies. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 Protestors are getting handled - it's all a bit Bolsonaro. They've been struggling to elect a functioning government for some time - maybe authoritarianism would suit them better. Funny though, in all of that Netanyahu still promotes LGBT rights. Is the world ready for a nuclear armed drag queen loving despot? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted February 26, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Jareth said: Is the world ready for a nuclear armed drag queen loving despot? This may be harsh and I might be wrong but now I think you're trolling. This is really poor, Jareth. Edited February 26, 2023 by trekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 10 minutes ago, trekka said: This may be harsh and I might be wrong but now I think you're trolling. This is really poor, Jareth. Not at all mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 29 minutes ago, Jareth said: Funny though, in all of that Netanyahu still promotes LGBT rights. Is the world ready for a nuclear armed drag queen loving despot? What relevance is LGBT promoting or drag queen loving? The world doesn't need a nuclear armed despot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 7 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: What relevance is LGBT promoting or drag queen loving? The world doesn't need a nuclear armed despot. Given most right wing governments are not also on the same hand LGBT promoting - I found humour in that - but hopefully that doesn't offend anyone because it was not the intention! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 There has always been close ties between wealthy Jewish Russians and Israel. So there is likely conflict/influence at play there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 2 hours ago, Jareth said: Given most right wing governments are not also on the same hand LGBT promoting - I found humour in that - but hopefully that doesn't offend anyone because it was not the intention! Fair enough. I can see the humour in that image. But your comments regarding Israel have been in 3 threads today and it feels a little odd. It feels like you have an opinion to express or questions to raise but you are circling around the matter. If you have strong opinions or questions - why not just get them out in the open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Fair enough. I can see the humour in that image. But your comments regarding Israel have been in 3 threads today and it feels a little odd. It feels like you have an opinion to express or questions to raise but you are circling around the matter. If you have strong opinions or questions - why not just get them out in the open? I have - here - went looking for an Israel specific thread and there isn't one - so I made one. Ukraine involvement, rightwing government, topics that could go in one place rather than in lots of others. First Israel thread I got wrong, started with a story about a UK hospital taking down kids' art due to legal pressure from a group with Israel in their name - it was the wrong tone to kick it off and also didn't really work as a thread. Sure there are criticisms to be made about Israel, but I'd like to know more about the place too. Not interested in any nonsense about Israel being a racist endeavour or whatever that line is. Not trolling either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 It's shocking the west have never got involved in this ongoing conflict, bloodshed, but stick there noses in every other. Although on the other hand it probably isn't so shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: It's shocking the west have never got involved in this ongoing conflict, bloodshed, but stick there noses in every other. Although on the other hand it probably isn't so shocking. Wait, what? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 26, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 26, 2023 32 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: It's shocking the west have never got involved in this ongoing conflict, bloodshed, but stick there noses in every other. Although on the other hand it probably isn't so shocking. Wow. History isn’t everyone’s thing (it’s not mine, for one), but…maybe it’s a generation thing, or whatever… Germany, the UK, USA there’s just 3 massive really key players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 19 minutes ago, blandy said: Wow. History isn’t everyone’s thing (it’s not mine, for one), but…maybe it’s a generation thing, or whatever… Germany, the UK, USA there’s just 3 massive really key players. And? Im willing to here the cut down story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 From basically ‘always’ there have been waves of hate against Jews perpetrated at national and European levels. In the 1400’s many Jews had to leave many countries including Spain, German states, Britain etc., some went to Turkey which controlled Jerusalem. Britain had control over Transjordan / Palestine / Jerusalem following WWI. Revolution in Russia meant many Jews left for Palestine due to pogroms. When Germany went Nazi they agreed to allow 50,000 Jews to leave for Palestine / Jerusalem. But Britain set an entry tax, so as they weren’t allowed to leave Germany with money, this was problematic. The nazification of europe meant more and more countries had an exodus of Jews, but that also meant more and more countries banned Jewish immigration to stop them landing there, including the U.S. that stopped people landing from ships that had crossed the Atlantic. Worried about mass migration away from the extermination camps, Britain closed Palestine to any further Jewish immigration. Any Jews caught by Britain escaping the gas chambers and trying to get in to Palestine during WWII were arrested and imprisoned in Africa. After WWII there was a further massacre / pogrom of Jews in Poland, but Britain still wouldn’t open up Jerusalem. The U.S. who had previously banned Jewish immigration ships to the U.S. threatened to cut of the money to rebuild the UK. The UN proposed two states, one for Arabs, one for Jews, but Britain failed to implement the plan. Civil war broke out, Jews declared an independent state regardless of Britain or what the Arabs wanted. The U.S. and Russia immediately recognised Israel. We’ve all **** it up for a very long time. The above is simply an abbreviation from wiki. A people that have been **** over for a thousand years appear to lack any empathy for Arabs who they now treat in a terrible racist way, at state level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jareth said: TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Tens of thousands of Israelis on Saturday protested their far-right government’s plans to overhaul the legal system, three days after parliament advanced a bill that would enable lawmakers to overturn a Supreme Court decision with a simple majority. https://apnews.com/article/politics-benjamin-netanyahu-tel-aviv-israel-6084a0737b4c5a732846164aa5592e0c Israel is on a trajectory to becoming undemocratic - it's a dark time for the country and folks are protesting. I'm interested in the dynamics of Israeli society - not knowing a great deal myself and would welcome those that do understand it to offer their candid thoughts on where it is going. The country as a nuclear power in my view has a large part to play on the world stage - yet it is remaining out of the Ukraine situation. Yet it is heavily funded by the USA, who are all in on Ukraine - why is this so. This thread has not been created to slag the country off - but to understand it better - so please no insults - although I'm sure free speech is allowed here so long as there's something credible to point to. I've been following Israeli politics from a distance for a while, so I'll do my best to give you a genuine answer here - although if other people know the subject matter better than me then feel free to jump in and correct me. I might be getting stuff wrong. Israel is Western-aligned for historical reasons. It's a country originally created by the British Empire to provide the Jews a homeland, and the neighbouring Arab states were not very happy about them being handed a swathe of Arab land and tried to wipe them out on several occasions. But the West feels like it owes a debt to the Jews after the whole Holocaust thing, and having a democratic state in the Middle East when the surrounding Arab states tended to lean Soviet meant that America in particular gave Israel a lot of support. So despite being massively outnumbered the Israelis convincingly won the various wars against their neighbours and that's where they got the occupied territories come from. Fifty years ago I wouldn't be surprised if we would have viewed Israel the way we view Ukraine now; the victims of needless aggression. There's obviously a few problems with Israel in it's modern form. The biggest ones are the Arabs living with the occupied territories and in Israel proper. There was an opportunity missed to settle the Palestinian question with a two-state solution about 20 years back, and now that's effectively dead. Israeli settlers have built settlements all over the occupied territory and politically it's very difficult for an Israeli politican to say they'd remove them as the settlers are a powerful nationalist political lobby, so nobody advocates for a two-state solution any more. But there doesn't appear to be any idea to replace it, other than to continue the status quo with the occupied territories. Recently the other Arab states have actually made their peace with Israel because everyone is worried about Iran (who are Shia muslims rather than Sunni muslims like everyone else), and basically abandoned the Palestinians to their fate. Right now the guy in charge is Netanyahu, who is currently trying to stay in power as long as possible as he's facing charges of fraud (I think?). He lost power recently to a rainbow coalition of opposition parties but then won it again at the last election, in coalition with an incredibly right-wing nationalist party that cater mostly to the ultra-orthodox Haredi Jews. He's trying to undermine the judiciary because they're political opponents for various reasons, not least the fraud case. He absolutely hates the Democrats in the US for various personal and practical reasons, but he knows the current incarnation of the Republicans will back him no matter what he does. This is similar to the Saudis - part of the reason they're being dicks right now is because they think any incoming Republican president will forgive and forget everything, so they don't feel like they need to listen to the Democrats lecturing them. To me it all seems pretty short termist. If they lose America's backing then they're in huge trouble. If their democracy falls apart then there's a real danger all the tech companies that power their economy leave. The Arab question is only going to get worse with time. They've got a massive problem with ultra-orthodox Haredi Jews who are a growing part of the population (currently ~15%) and are exempt from national service and just pursue religious studies until they reach retirement age, all paid for by the government. Etc. It'll certainly be interesting to see where they are in ten years time. Edited February 26, 2023 by Panto_Villan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts