AVTuco Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 7 hours ago, Stevo985 said: He was already the greatest player of all time. The only thing people could hold over him (wrongly in my opinion) was that he hadn’t won and international trophy. Then when he did that the only thing people had on him was he’d never won a World Cup. Now he’s done that too. And he’s carried Argentina to both trophies. The argument against him being the greatest of all time is now non existent. No. Without the cup, Messi was not in the debate. Now, with the cup, Messi can enter the debate. Top two has become top three. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 There is only one way to find out- fight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2022 Messi vs Maradona 1986 Age: 35-26 Games: 7-7 Goals: 7-5 Assists: 3-5 Diego was involved in 10/14 (71%) in the tournament, Messi with 10/15 (67%) Diego was involved in 5/8 goals in KO stages (63%), Messi was involved in 7/10 (70%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messi11 Posted December 19, 2022 Author Share Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) Messi vs Pele: Records: Arguable Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Messi Passing: Messi Heading: Pele Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Pele Messi vs Maradona: Records: Messi Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Maradona Passing: Messi Heading: Arguable Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Maradona Edited December 19, 2022 by messi11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, PaulC said: i dont think you can say that. They wouldnt have the same training facilities, they would get zero protection from refs, they wouldnt play on great pitches. Recovery methods different. They would be injured more and longevity wouldnt be there. Pele retired at 30. That’s why I said if you dropped them in now rather than if they grew up in that era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 1 hour ago, AVTuco said: No. Without the cup, Messi was not in the debate. Now, with the cup, Messi can enter the debate. Top two has become top three. This argument was absolute nonsense before he won the World Cup and it’s still absolute nonsense now 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Beastmix said: Maradona, for me. It's reasonable to say Maradona and Messi are directly comparible in ability, size, and style, so we could make a case to say, from a base-point, they're about as equal as it gets. Then, take away all the advantages Messi has had: sport science, heavy data analysis, higher quality teammates (club/national), better pitches, and so on. Take these things away and, suddenly, it should all become clearer. Messi is still the 2nd best though... and I don't even like the man. I agree, massive advantages for modern footballers in sports science, statistics, pitches, rules, fouling etc... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Beastmix said: Then, take away all the advantages Messi has had: sport science, heavy data analysis, higher quality teammates (club/national), better pitches, and so on. Take these things away and, suddenly, it should all become clearer. But everyone else in this era has those advantages too. So the opponents are better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Beastmix said: It's reasonable to say Maradona and Messi are directly comparible in ability, size, and style, so we could make a case to say, from a base-point, they're about as equal as it gets. Then, take away all the advantages Messi has had: sport science, heavy data analysis, higher quality teammates (club/national), better pitches, and so on. These so called advantages you talk about. Defenders have these advantages also which levels it out! So defenders would be better than in the olden days.@Zhan_Zhuang@Beastmix Maradona also had the advantage of no var and dodgy refs, his two goals in his greatest performance of all time against England in the 1986 World Cup wouldn't of stood in todays game. Also Maradona era there was no drugs testing. Like the WWE/Wresting and most sports in the 80's/90's most of these Footballers would of been doping and most likely to cheat. Edited December 19, 2022 by Lupinthe5th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmix Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 30 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: But everyone else in this era has those advantages too. So the opponents are better No, but I'm pitting the two individuals against each other. Side by side. They're effectively the same player, but one had far more advantages than the other, meaning the one who didn't, by definition, is the better player. Maradona, with all the advantages Messi has had, would have been horrifyingly good. I mean, nobody can say, definitively, who the best is anyway. It's a boring debate, much like the greatest boxer is. There are too many variables to consider, so I'm simply throwing my argument into the ocean of arguments. The most alarming thing is Argentina have produced the two best players who ever played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmix Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, Lupinthe5th said: These so called advantages you talk about. Defenders have these advantages also which levels it out! So defenders would be better than in the olden days.@Zhan_Zhuang@Beastmix Maradona also had the advantage of no var and dodgy refs, his two goals in his greatest performance of all time against England in the 1986 World Cup wouldn't of stood in todays game. Also Maradona era there was no drugs testing. Like the WWE/Wresting and most sports in the 80's/90's most of these Footballers would of been doping and most likely to cheat. ...not sure this argument stands when we're literally talking about a footballer who's been on growth hormone drugs for the majority of his life. Medical purposes or not, it's a leg up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Defending is also the lowest standard it has ever been Maguire and Stones for example would have never got an England call up if they played in other eras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 38 minutes ago, Beastmix said: No, but I'm pitting the two individuals against each other. Side by side. They're effectively the same player, but one had far more advantages than the other, meaning the one who didn't, by definition, is the better player. Maradona, with all the advantages Messi has had, would have been horrifyingly good. I mean, nobody can say, definitively, who the best is anyway. It's a boring debate, much like the greatest boxer is. There are too many variables to consider, so I'm simply throwing my argument into the ocean of arguments. The most alarming thing is Argentina have produced the two best players who ever played. But Maradona was playing against far inferior teams and players. Because nobody else had the advantages that Messi had either. You can’t take all the positives from playing in the modern era and ignore the negatives. The game hadn’t got easier. In fact it’s got far far harder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 36 minutes ago, Lupinthe5th said: These so called advantages you talk about. Defenders have these advantages also which levels it out! So defenders would be better than in the olden days.@Zhan_Zhuang@Beastmix Maradona also had the advantage of no var and dodgy refs, his two goals in his greatest performance of all time against England in the 1986 World Cup wouldn't of stood in todays game. Also Maradona era there was no drugs testing. Like the WWE/Wresting and most sports in the 80's/90's most of these Footballers would of been doping and most likely to cheat. Maradona didn't just play well in one game against England...he was unplayable against a very good Belgium team in the Semi-final and also scored two. As I said before he single-handedly dragged an unfavoured Napoli team to greatness when they were often underdogs and the whole of Italy was against them. Well before that he was exceptional for Argentinos Juniors and Boca. Serie A matches were known for being very tight games with few goals, Maradona changed that. 31 minutes ago, Beastmix said: ...not sure this argument stands when we're literally talking about a footballer who's been on growth hormone drugs for the majority of his life. Medical purposes or not, it's a leg up. Never thought of that, help from the very latest in science and technology. Something former players did not benefit from... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: Maradona didn't just play well in one game against England...he was unplayable against a very good Belgium team in the Semi-final and also scored two. As I said before he single-handedly dragged an unfavoured Napoli team to greatness when they were often underdogs and the whole of Italy was against them. Well before that he was exceptional for Argentinos Juniors and Boca. Serie A matches were known for being very tight games with few goals, Maradona changed that. Never thought of that, help from the very latest in science and technology. Something former players did not benefit from... How did Maradona do at Barcelona compared to Messi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, messi11 said: Messi vs Pele: Records: Arguable Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Messi Passing: Messi Heading: Pele Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Pele Messi vs Maradona: Records: Messi Accolades: Messi Individual honors: Messi Dribbling: Maradona Passing: Messi Heading: Arguable Finishing: Arguable Long Range Shooting: Messi Free Kicks: Messi Final Score: Messi 6-1 Maradona Pretty much agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, Lupinthe5th said: How did Maradona do at Barcelona compared to Messi? 22 goals in 36 games! How would Messi do playing in Serie A with a midtable team? Messi benefited from playing with one of the best teams in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 19, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: 22 goals in 36 games! How would Messi do playing in Serie A with a midtable team? At his peak I don’t see any reason why Messi wouldn’t have bettered that tally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, Stevo985 said: At his peak I don’t see any reason why Messi wouldn’t have bettered that tally It's possible for sure, look I love Messi honestly I do and I'm not belittling him at all. Just, it's Maradona for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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