Steven Gerrard

[Jas10]

10 hours ago, messi11 said:

As a Gerrard Outer, it confuses me how we are sitting 10th in the table since Gerrard took over.

This dross i'm watching week in and out is enough to get 10th place? I mean if he can get it to click into places top 8 really isn't that out of the question!

Are we (I) being too harsh on Gerrard? 

We are getting shitter and shitter under this guy, is 3 wins in 15 acceptable? As well as the eye test, the other records and stats?

Not like you to change your mind so quickly but oh well…

Again, I’m just hoping for a turnaround asap otherwise this season is going down the toilet… not fun…

[macandally]

10 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we win four games next month, I'm sure I could find a stat saying that " No other Villa Manager has ever won 4 matches in a September after 3 pm in a month where Tyrone Mings hasn't scored "

Yes the stats are shit. However I find pictures can be painted with stats to suit any narrative.

" Steven Gerrard is the only Villa Manager to ever have beaten Everton on a Saturday in a game where Anwar El Ghazi wasn't fasting "

Last week it was one saying he would be the worst Villa Manager in history or something like that. Lol

I don't reckon I even need research to rebuff some of these things, as I've been a Villa fan long enough and have other memories.

May I suggest the most important is how many points we are getting and despite the randomness of your post, the fact is we only have one win this year and 3 in 14.

It’s how damaged we let the changing room become before we pull the trigger

[Jas10]

3 minutes ago, macandally said:

May I suggest the most important is how many points we are getting and despite the randomness of your post, the fact is we only have one win this year and 3 in 14.

It’s how damaged we let the changing room become before we pull the trigger

Really concerned about this and how, the longer we leave it without any improvement or upturn, it will make the job a lot more difficult for the next guy…

A few damaging defeats will destroy morale, belief and unity… it’s going to be a big task to lift these players and get them going and make a bigger push to try and have a successful season… we can’t finish in the bottom half again, surely? Is that acceptable to anyone?

When are we actually going to make some progress?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

35 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

We are getting shitter and shitter under this guy, is 3 wins in 15 acceptable? 

If we win 10 games in a row now, will we say we've won. 13 out of 25 so it's not good enough? ( Or say we win 5, draw 3 and lose 2 - is the record the 8 wins out of 25 that is judgable, or the points acquired within the season?)

How long are we dragging last half season into his record for desired effect?.

And I know the next Inevitable response will be " Well Dean Smith was judged over more than one season so why should this be different ".

Even though, the cirsumstances are different for a multitude of reasons.

We are legit going around in circles.

Current season is Won 1, lost 2. ( Or won 2, lost 2 in all games )

Eye test is shit etc etc as most people agree. We have a game tomorrow, let's see if that deteriorates or improves.

Edited August 27, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

19 minutes ago, macandally said:

May I suggest the most important is how many points we are getting and despite the randomness of your post, the fact is we only have one win this year and 3 in 14.

It’s how damaged we let the changing room become before we pull the trigger

Do points and/or lack of carry over from the previous season?

As I mentioned above in post to Jas, yeah I get it, but is it " fair "?

[Laughable Chimp]

6 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we win 10 games in a row now, will we say we've won. 13 out of 25 so it's not good enough?

How long are we dragging last half season into his record for desired effect?.

And I know the next I evitabek response will be " Well Dean Smith was judged over more than one season so why should this be different ".

Even though, the cirsumstances are different for a multitude of reasons.

We are legit going around in circles.

Serious question because I'm actually working on a table that aims to take recency into account.

Ignoring the effect of the strength of the opposition and assuming the matches before don't play into your opinions at all.

Imagine in our last 10 matches, we went on a 5 game winning streak followed by a 5 game losing streak. How worried would you be compared to if we went on a 5 game losing streak followed by a 5 game winning one? Like give me it in percentage terms.

Anyone can answer btw.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Laughable Chimp

[Jas10]

12 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we win 10 games in a row now, will we say we've won. 13 out of 25 so it's not good enough?

How long are we dragging last half season into his record for desired effect?.

And I know the next I evitabek response will be " Well Dean Smith was judged over more than one season so why should this be different ".

Even though, the cirsumstances are different for a multitude of reasons.

We are legit going around in circles.

Current season is Won 1, lost 2. ( Or won 2, lost 2 in all games )

Eye test is shit etc etc as most people agree. We have a game tomorrow, let's see if that deteriorates or improves.

No mate, I was not going to mention Dean. I’ve already stated that we should stop doing that.

If we win 10 in a row we’ll be in dreamland and SG will get a lot of love…

The overall record won’t matter then because we’d be on a massive wave and run of confidence and momentum and that is a hell of a lot of wins, some kind of record?

Us Gerrard outers are not quite as stupid or irrational (not all of us) as you seem to think…

What we’re most concerned with is what is going on now, rather than the past, but looking back, looking at his record, the past games and statistics, just gives more credence to the notion that he is doing a bad job and is unlikely to improve or progress us… enough…

Why are we ignoring the facts? Cos of his name and reputation? Or out of blind hope?

Yes, let’s see what happens tomorrow. We’d all be delighted with a win and a good performance.

But it’s the Gerrard thread, nothing to stop us discussing what is going on and how he is doing… even if we are going round in circles, at least we can let off some steam and frustration…

We’re all worked up right now… so maybe we should give each other a bit of slack…

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jas10

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Serious question because I'm actually working on a table that aims to take recency into account.

Ignoring the effect of the strength of the opposition'.

Imagine in our last 10 matches, we went on a 5 game winning streak followed by a 5 game losing streak. How worried would you be compared to if we went on a 5 game losing streak followed by a 5 game winning one?

I think this is more of a mental thing, so probably 5 game losing, followed by winning and I'd be less worried. However, the losing streak would be etched in minds still.

It's why I'd prefer a scattering of results. ( Or preferably going undefeated lol )

[Laughable Chimp]

7 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I think this is more of a mental thing, so probably 5 game losing, followed by winning and I'd be less worried. However, the losing streak would be etched in minds still.

It's why I'd prefer a scattering of results. ( Or preferably going undefeated lol )

But to a certain extent, recency should play a factor no? Like imagine I extended it to a whole season.

First season, the manager loses almost every game and just survives relegation. Next season, we win the league.

Now compare it to if the first season, we won the league but the next season we just barely survive relegation.

Surely it would be rational to be more worried of the future in the second scenario than the first. Its not just a mental thing

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Laughable Chimp

[Jas10]

If we’re still on 3 points after 6 games… what’s the verdict?

[sne]

8 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

If we’re still on 3 points after 6 games… what’s the verdict?

Edited August 27, 2022 by sne

[El Segundo]

The arguments defending Gerrard are pretty weak.  He was a brilliant player - so what, it means nothing in terms of being a good manager - See John Barnes, Ruud Gullit, Alan Shearer, Thierry Henry and many others. He did well at Rangers - does anyone really need to explain again why this is not much of a recommendation?  He can attract bigger names than Smith could have.  Ok we otherwise may not have got Carlos and Kamara but is that it?  Coutinho was a big name 6 years ago but isn't 20% of the player he was at Liverpool.  Digne?  Is he really that much of an upgrade on Targett?   10th in the table since he joined?  Well that includes the new manager "bounce" but points per game have steadily declined since then, as have performances.  And it's the actual table that counts, not this one. He's still learning his trade - well if that's the case he should be nowhere near the Aston Villa manager's job.  The PL does not allow time for people to get up to speed, and there is no guarantee he will ever learn the appropriate lessons and be able to apply them.    

There are far more, and more robust arguments against Gerrard.   Our points per game is getting lower.  Gerrard's win percentage is one of the worst we've ever had.  We don't seem to have a defined style of play.  Gerrard doesn't seem to know his best 11 or best formation.   Players don't seem to be selected on merit.  They players do not look like they have bought in to Gerrard's approach.  Players that probably deserved more of a chance have been frozen out or ignored.  There appear to be rifts in the dressing room.  The transfer policy leans towards older players on high wages who are supposed to be able to deliver now which is fine if they do, not so good if they don't, and is not a sustainable long term policy.  Further to that he doesn't seem that interested in giving the younger players a proper run.  The football is awful to watch.  It's laboured, slow tempo, boring, risk free, possession for the sake of possession (or at least attempts at it when we can actually retain the ball) and it doesn't work.  The reliance on the full backs to provide any width is awful and isn;t really working.  We don't create much and our defence is often cut through like a hot knife through butter, often because the big holes where our full backs should be are exploited. .   He repeatedly picks a midfield formation that has repeatedly shown it doesn't work.  There is no discernable progress from the Dean Smith days.  In some ways we have gone backwards - I enjoyed watching Smith teams for the most part, you could see what we were trying to do even if it didn't always work.  Watching a Gerrard team is almost as boring and painful s watching a Bruce team. 

Would anyone except a former superstar player be allowed such leeway?

[Jas10]

33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we win 10 games in a row now,

Are we finally signing De Arrascaeta now?

[messi11]

1 hour ago, Jas10 said:

We are getting shitter and shitter under this guy, is 3 wins in 15 acceptable? As well as the eye test, the other records and stats?

Not like you to change your mind so quickly but oh well…

Again, I’m just hoping for a turnaround asap otherwise this season is going down the toilet… not fun…

I haven't changed my mind because the football isnt great to watch! 
But the table is a good argument against sacking him! West Ham game will tell us a lot 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

43 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

If we’re still on 3 points after 6 games… what’s the verdict?

Especially if it's a shit performance... I think it might be finger on the trigger time...

[Jas10]

6 minutes ago, messi11 said:

I haven't changed my mind because the football isnt great to watch! 
But the table is a good argument against sacking him! West Ham game will tell us a lot 

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, El Segundo said:

The arguments defending Gerrard are pretty weak.  He was a brilliant player - so what, it means nothing in terms of being a good manager - See John Barnes, Ruud Gullit, Alan Shearer, Thierry Henry and many others. He did well at Rangers - does anyone really need to explain again why this is not much of a recommendation?  He can attract bigger names than Smith could have.  Ok we otherwise may not have got Carlos and Kamara but is that it?  Coutinho was a big name 6 years ago but isn't 20% of the player he was at Liverpool.  Digne?  Is he really that much of an upgrade on Targett?   10th in the table since he joined?  Well that includes the new manager "bounce" but points per game have steadily declined since then, as have performances.  And it's the actual table that counts, not this one. He's still learning his trade - well if that's the case he should be nowhere near the Aston Villa manager's job.  The PL does not allow time for people to get up to speed, and there is no guarantee he will ever learn the appropriate lessons and be able to apply them.    

There are far more, and more robust arguments against Gerrard.   Our points per game is getting lower.  Gerrard's win percentage is one of the worst we've ever had.  We don't seem to have a defined style of play.  Gerrard doesn't seem to know his best 11 or best formation.   Players don't seem to be selected on merit.  They players do not look like they have bought in to Gerrard's approach.  Players that probably deserved more of a chance have been frozen out or ignored.  There appear to be rifts in the dressing room.  The transfer policy leans towards older players on high wages who are supposed to be able to deliver now which is fine if they do, not so good if they don't, and is not a sustainable long term policy.  Further to that he doesn't seem that interested in giving the younger players a proper run.  The football is awful to watch.  It's laboured, slow tempo, boring, risk free, possession for the sake of possession (or at least attempts at it when we can actually retain the ball) and it doesn't work.  The reliance on the full backs to provide any width is awful and isn;t really working.  We don't create much and our defence is often cut through like a hot knife through butter, often because the big holes where our full backs should be are exploited. .   He repeatedly picks a midfield formation that has repeatedly shown it doesn't work.  There is no discernable progress from the Dean Smith days.  In some ways we have gone backwards - I enjoyed watching Smith teams for the most part, you could see what we were trying to do even if it didn't always work.  Watching a Gerrard team is almost as boring and painful s watching a Bruce team. 

Would anyone except a former superstar player be allowed such leeway?

 

Pretty much covers it. What valid argument or reasoned debate against this is there? It’s spot on.

[macandally]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we win 10 games in a row now, will we say we've won. 13 out of 25 so it's not good enough? ( Or say we win 5, draw 3 and lose 2 - is the record the 8 wins out of 25 that is judgable, or the points acquired within the season?)

How long are we dragging last half season into his record for desired effect?.

And I know the next Inevitable response will be " Well Dean Smith was judged over more than one season so why should this be different ".

Even though, the cirsumstances are different for a multitude of reasons.

We are legit going around in circles.

Current season is Won 1, lost 2. ( Or won 2, lost 2 in all games )

Eye test is shit etc etc as most people agree. We have a game tomorrow, let's see if that deteriorates or improves.

I give points as a barometer as it is the only real stats that matter, but there may be some latitude if we could see some form of progress.  Personally I could see what Arteta was doing at Arsenal, it just took a little while to implement but the progress was visible.

With Gerrard I see a slavish approach to a formation that doesn’t suit the players, the team or by the looks of it, the league.  We couldn’t be more open, people just waltz through the middle and are on our back line far too easily.  It’s obvious but is not being fixed.

At the same time the “feel good” factor around the club both within and external to the changing room is disappearing quickly.  The Mings decision was baffling but smacks of Alpha Male and to be honest, Mings was the only one who had any class.  They way it was then glossed over using the media stank.

All in all, he needs a massive run of results to get me back on his side as at the moment he comes across as arrogant, clueless and shallow.  Nothing to suggest he will ever be a top flight manager with those traits!

[Jas10]

8 minutes ago, macandally said:

I give points as a barometer as it is the only real stats that matter, but there may be some latitude if we could see some form of progress.  Personally I could see what Arteta was doing at Arsenal, it just took a little while to implement but the progress was visible.

With Gerrard I see a slavish approach to a formation that doesn’t suit the players, the team or by the looks of it, the league.  We couldn’t be more open, people just waltz through the middle and are on our back line far too easily.  It’s obvious but is not being fixed.

At the same time the “feel good” factor around the club both within and external to the changing room is disappearing quickly.  The Mings decision was baffling but smacks of Alpha Male and to be honest, Mings was the only one who had any class.  They way it was then glossed over using the media stank.

All in all, he needs a massive run of results to get me back on his side as at the moment he comes across as arrogant, clueless and shallow.  Nothing to suggest he will ever be a top flight manager with those traits!

What Arteta was doing was very visible:

I don’t see the comparison, it’s lazy. Completely different situation, context…

Our aims and aspirations are completely different, never seen them pissing about in the lower half of the table and achieving nothing…

[sne]

Not even the hair is anywhere close. And that's probably the only thing Gerrard has going for him.

Edited August 27, 2022 by sne