TRO Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 30 minutes ago, Made In Aston said: Any player who tells the opposition to fu*k off is a great signing in my book. The more the better! Mocking the disabled is where I draw the line though. sorry, I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 5 minutes ago, TRO said: sorry, I don't understand. I’m assuming it’s because you said we shouldn’t sign an ‘offensive’ player. Offensive adjective causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed. "the allegations made are deeply offensive to us" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, theboyangel said: I’m assuming it’s because you said we shouldn’t sign an ‘offensive’ player. Offensive adjective causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed. "the allegations made are deeply offensive to us" ok.....attacking player. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 The defensive weakness largely stems from the wholesale changes that we’ve needed recently due to injuries, suspensions and having to play Konsa at RB. A regular back line as stated below would make us far more solid. New RB konsa Pau Digne or Moreno Similarly the moment we lose Kamara we become much weaker as we don’t have a replacement for him and it ends up with us moving Mcginn or Tielemans back and playing them out of position . Resolve that in January and we’ll be pretty well set from a defensive perspective. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 3 hours ago, TRO said: It might sound controversial, but I don't think John McGinn can either for slightly different reasons.....I think we need another option there, to give Dougie and Boub a rest at times. The double pivot was enhanced when, Kamara arrived, and dougie's performance was improved......its a role, that has an impact on the rest of the teams performances.....we need cover for it, quality cover. I don't think that's controversial at all. I, at least, agree 100%. Deano used Dougie and McGinn in the double pivot when he used a 4-2-3-1. It didn't work. McGinn's abilities are best used further forward. Last summer, I thought that Tielemans was signed to rotate with Doug and Kamara in the double pivot, but now he's being used further forward, too...if we're 3-box-3 in attack, it's been Doug and Tielemans on the front of the box, and Doug and Kamara on the back of the box. We also have JJ and, when he comes back, Buendia competing for positions at the front of the box. Arguably Zaniolo too. So yes, we need cover in the double pivot. To me, Donck in the double pivot is like Olsen is as a GK. Olsen is a competent shot blocker, but today's goalkeepers need to do more, i.e. pass the ball, especially in our system where we pass the ball around in back so much. Donck is a competent ball-winner, but his passing limitations mean he just doesn't fit our system. The problems is, if you find another player who can win the ball and pass, i.e. another Doug or Kamara, he's a good enough player that he's going to want to start and he's going to be expensive. But the "big" clubs have been managing this sort of problem for years. That's part of us moving up in the world. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 2 hours ago, TRO said: ok.....attacking player. It's interesting how the American use of "offense" has crept into football talk in the last decade. When i first started following English football 30+ years ago, I quickly realized that it was always "attack," never "offense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders129 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 One thing I just realised is that this team have a number of players who’ve actually won leagues and trophies: Martinez, Digne, Carlos, Torres, McGinn, Zaniolo, Tielemans, Diaby Having players who’ve got over the line to win something is so crucial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeypuzzle Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 8 hours ago, TomC said: I don't think that's controversial at all. I, at least, agree 100%. Deano used Dougie and McGinn in the double pivot when he used a 4-2-3-1. It didn't work. McGinn's abilities are best used further forward. Last summer, I thought that Tielemans was signed to rotate with Doug and Kamara in the double pivot, but now he's being used further forward, too...if we're 3-box-3 in attack, it's been Doug and Tielemans on the front of the box, and Doug and Kamara on the back of the box. We also have JJ and, when he comes back, Buendia competing for positions at the front of the box. Arguably Zaniolo too. So yes, we need cover in the double pivot. To me, Donck in the double pivot is like Olsen is as a GK. Olsen is a competent shot blocker, but today's goalkeepers need to do more, i.e. pass the ball, especially in our system where we pass the ball around in back so much. Donck is a competent ball-winner, but his passing limitations mean he just doesn't fit our system. The problems is, if you find another player who can win the ball and pass, i.e. another Doug or Kamara, he's a good enough player that he's going to want to start and he's going to be expensive. But the "big" clubs have been managing this sort of problem for years. That's part of us moving up in the world. Have they though? Who is Man City's quality back up to Rodri? Who do Liverpool have now that Fabinho has gone? Who do Man Utd have backing up Cassimeiro? Who is backing up Rice at Arsenal? Partey was rumoured to leave before he got moved to right back and then got injured. The big clubs do NOT have answers to this problem. Having injuries to your best players and first choice eleven affects any squad. Teams have their most successful seasons when they are lucky enough to have very few injuries to their first eleven. Otherwise they just do the best they can without a perfect replacement. Edited January 2 by Monkeypuzzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLVillan Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 8 hours ago, TomC said: I don't think that's controversial at all. I, at least, agree 100%. Deano used Dougie and McGinn in the double pivot when he used a 4-2-3-1. It didn't work. McGinn's abilities are best used further forward. Last summer, I thought that Tielemans was signed to rotate with Doug and Kamara in the double pivot, but now he's being used further forward, too...if we're 3-box-3 in attack, it's been Doug and Tielemans on the front of the box, and Doug and Kamara on the back of the box. We also have JJ and, when he comes back, Buendia competing for positions at the front of the box. Arguably Zaniolo too. So yes, we need cover in the double pivot. To me, Donck in the double pivot is like Olsen is as a GK. Olsen is a competent shot blocker, but today's goalkeepers need to do more, i.e. pass the ball, especially in our system where we pass the ball around in back so much. Donck is a competent ball-winner, but his passing limitations mean he just doesn't fit our system. The problems is, if you find another player who can win the ball and pass, i.e. another Doug or Kamara, he's a good enough player that he's going to want to start and he's going to be expensive. But the "big" clubs have been managing this sort of problem for years. That's part of us moving up in the world. Doug is an excellent player, but if he's playing two positions at once it's no wonder he's looked a bit tired recently... I honestly think any team, including Citeh and the Dippers, will drop a level when their best players are out. Rodri missing for Citeh is the most glaring example. They have players who are maybe as technically good as he is, but there is always going to need to be a tactical tweak here and there, or someone coming in that hasn't got that same understanding with the players around him. It could be argued that Citeh have actually failed to manage the problem, because they don't have a natural replacement for Rodri. Phillips is clearly deemed not good enough and their next-best option is to move Stones into midfield - and our midfield ran rings around him... Citeh's system relies heavily on Rodri and before that Fernandinho. They've been fortunate that neither of them have had extended periods out of the team.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 17 hours ago, TomC said: I don't think that's controversial at all. I, at least, agree 100%. Deano used Dougie and McGinn in the double pivot when he used a 4-2-3-1. It didn't work. McGinn's abilities are best used further forward. Last summer, I thought that Tielemans was signed to rotate with Doug and Kamara in the double pivot, but now he's being used further forward, too...if we're 3-box-3 in attack, it's been Doug and Tielemans on the front of the box, and Doug and Kamara on the back of the box. We also have JJ and, when he comes back, Buendia competing for positions at the front of the box. Arguably Zaniolo too. So yes, we need cover in the double pivot. To me, Donck in the double pivot is like Olsen is as a GK. Olsen is a competent shot blocker, but today's goalkeepers need to do more, i.e. pass the ball, especially in our system where we pass the ball around in back so much. Donck is a competent ball-winner, but his passing limitations mean he just doesn't fit our system. The problems is, if you find another player who can win the ball and pass, i.e. another Doug or Kamara, he's a good enough player that he's going to want to start and he's going to be expensive. But the "big" clubs have been managing this sort of problem for years. That's part of us moving up in the world. well put....spot on. FWIW I think Dougie, McGinn and Tielemans do their best work in the front 3 of midfield......we deploy players to just do a job. Dougie can play in the pivot with Kamara....but in some tight games away from home a similar type of midfielder to Kamara migh be needed, its horses for courses....sometimes 2 CDM's sometimes 1 and a ACM Quality Players will sit out games for strategic purposes, so long as we are operating at the top...One thing is for sure, we cannot operate, without a strong bench for where we intend to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 After the halfway mark, we are up to an astounding 101 times we have caught the opponent offside. By far top of the league with the next closest being Tottenham with 64. For reference, we also finished top of the league last year with 116 times catching the opponent offside. Liverpool have the record at 144 times catching the opponent offside in 21/22 though we should obliterate that record at the pace we are going at (roughly 5/match). We also have only been caught offside 18 times - a league low. Also of note is that we have also conceded 0 penalties so far this season - the only team to do so. In fact - we have only conceded 2 penalties under Unai so far - both blatant dives (away to Grealish and away to Paqueta). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 5 hours ago, DJBOB said: After the halfway mark, we are up to an astounding 101 times we have caught the opponent offside. By far top of the league with the next closest being Tottenham with 64. For reference, we also finished top of the league last year with 116 times catching the opponent offside. Liverpool have the record at 144 times catching the opponent offside in 21/22 though we should obliterate that record at the pace we are going at (roughly 5/match). We also have only been caught offside 18 times - a league low. Also of note is that we have also conceded 0 penalties so far this season - the only team to do so. In fact - we have only conceded 2 penalties under Unai so far - both blatant dives (away to Grealish and away to Paqueta). I really think that part of our gameplan is to avoid nasty 50/50s whererver possible. I cannot remember one really bad tackle made by us and other than Gusto i cannot think of many potential leg breakers against us. We dont dive in much recklessly. Far less than many others anyway. Its all part of our tactics i think. Whats the point of going in for a 50/50 and potentially getting sent off/ or injured. Far better to rely on your teammates to get into position to stop any potential attacks. Also we use VAR as a positive not a negative. The highline to keep players out of our penalty area as much as is possible , knowing if we time it well then any attacks are going to be ruled out anyway. If they arent in our penalty areas then they arent getting opportunities to score. We dont protect the goal. We protect our highline . Its genius really. There will be times its beaten but if we think back to some of the battles of the alamo we have had since coming back up when teams would pepper our goal due to the low block. Mings and Konsa throwing themselves all over the gaff. Barely any of that these days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 16 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said: I really think that part of our gameplan is to avoid nasty 50/50s whererver possible. I cannot remember one really bad tackle made by us and other than Gusto i cannot think of many potential leg breakers against us. We dont dive in much recklessly. Far less than many others anyway. Its all part of our tactics i think. Whats the point of going in for a 50/50 and potentially getting sent off/ or injured. Far better to rely on your teammates to get into position to stop any potential attacks. Also we use VAR as a positive not a negative. The highline to keep players out of our penalty area as much as is possible , knowing if we time it well then any attacks are going to be ruled out anyway. If they arent in our penalty areas then they arent getting opportunities to score. We dont protect the goal. We protect our highline . Its genius really. There will be times its beaten but if we think back to some of the battles of the alamo we have had since coming back up when teams would pepper our goal due to the low block. Mings and Konsa throwing themselves all over the gaff. Barely any of that these days. There are plus points, absolutely no doubt, but we have to remember, we are competing with thinkers, now. I accept the plus points of the highline, but it doesn't help at set pieces, where we are called upon to defend our goal. I also think we have to keep ourselves sharp at defending, never know when you need it, catching them offside, won't always come to the rescue as we experienced at Old Trafford. I think we have out grown the notion of the low block....but we also at the same time, must appreciate the possible ease of scoring, when opponents breach the high line.....is all about percentages of advantages v disadvantages. The only discomfort, I have is, accepting that goal scoring is so difficult...once the highline is breached, and the opponent is on side, the rewards are a bit too easy for my liking....it kinda plays in to the hands of teams who want to play the high intensity, "get after you" game as we saw with Man U. To play the highline, with success, you have to negate the ball over the top, and we all know the kind of approach, that requires......and Standing off, is not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 3 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, TRO said: There are plus points, absolutely no doubt, but we have to remember, we are competing with thinkers, now. I accept the plus points of the highline, but it doesn't help at set pieces, where we are called upon to defend our goal. I also think we have to keep ourselves sharp at defending, never know when you need it, catching them offside, won't always come to the rescue as we experienced at Old Trafford. I think we have out grown the notion of the low block....but we also at the same time, must appreciate the possible ease of scoring, when opponents breach the high line.....is all about percentages of advantages v disadvantages. The only discomfort, I have is, accepting that goal scoring is so difficult...once the highline is breached, and the opponent is on side, the rewards are a bit too easy for my liking....it kinda plays in to the hands of teams who want to play the high intensity, "get after you" game as we saw with Man U. To play the highline, with success, you have to negate the ball over the top, and we all know the kind of approach, that requires......and Standing off, is not it. You can't react to a feeling , any change has to be data driven and atm the data tells us our tactics are working. We are over achieving our players abilities with a system that works for them and us if that systems starts to fail then we need to look at it again. We haven't looked so affective recently but that may be because Kamara, Torres and Tielemans are out. If its not that then teams may have found a way around our system or we could just be knackered or low in confidence. I think it's a combination of the players being out , us being tired and a blip in confidence. Edited January 3 by tinker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, tinker said: You can't react to a feeling , any change has to be data driven and atm the data tells us our tactics are working. We are over achieving our players abilities with a system that works for them and us if that systems starts to fail then we need to look at it again. We haven't looked so affective recently but that may be because Kamara, Torres and Tielemans are out. If its not that then teams may have found a way around our system or we could just be knackered or low in confidence. I think it's a combination of the players being out , us being tired and a blip in confidence. You can choose to react to what you wish......so can I.....I am not trying to convince you of anything, just giving my view....If I am giving an opinion, its not a fact, so I can rely on what I want. I don't choose, one source....and tactics are just one element...did they work at Old Trafford? I don't think we can rely on one source, with any credibility and that includes data, Sure we are missing key players, and they will affect our performances, but so are other teams. How does data, record, desire, belief and confidence? other than the elements that the aforementioned effects. How will you know, when the system fails? do we lose? I would hazard a guess, to say our confidence is as high as ever....tiredness, I don't know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 3 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, TRO said: You can choose to react to what you wish......so can I.....I am not trying to convince you of anything, just giving my view....If I am giving an opinion, its not a fact, so I can rely on what I want. I don't choose, one source....and tactics are just one element...did they work at Old Trafford? I don't think we can rely on one source, with any credibility and that includes data, Sure we are missing key players, and they will affect our performances, but so are other teams. How does data, record, desire, belief and confidence? other than the elements that the aforementioned effects. How will you know, when the system fails? do we lose? I would hazard a guess, to say our confidence is as high as ever....tiredness, I don't know. Sorry I wasn't trying to convince you I was referring to Emery and Villa changing things based on feeling. .....Yes, we lose and start to drop points relative to our opposition, that's when things could change, taking other factors into consideration, key players getting injured being one of the variables that should be considered. It's no secret that we are heavily invested in a data driven system. Edited January 3 by tinker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 16 hours ago, TRO said: To play the highline, with success, you have to negate the ball over the top, and we all know the kind of approach, that requires......and Standing off, is not it. I do agree with this. As successful as the high line and general approach has been, standing off is what gives the opposition the very small window where successful chances can be created. Beating a high line with the ball being short enough that Emi doesn't just lap it up is hard enough. A bit more pressing essentially makes it impossible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 13 hours ago, tinker said: Sorry I wasn't trying to convince you I was referring to Emery and Villa changing things based on feeling. .....Yes, we lose and start to drop points relative to our opposition, that's when things could change, taking other factors into consideration, key players getting injured being one of the variables that should be considered. It's no secret that we are heavily invested in a data driven system. sorry, for misconstruing your intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted January 4 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4 On 01/01/2024 at 16:26, TomC said: I don't think that's controversial at all. I, at least, agree 100%. Deano used Dougie and McGinn in the double pivot when he used a 4-2-3-1. It didn't work. McGinn's abilities are best used further forward. Last summer, I thought that Tielemans was signed to rotate with Doug and Kamara in the double pivot, but now he's being used further forward, too...if we're 3-box-3 in attack, it's been Doug and Tielemans on the front of the box, and Doug and Kamara on the back of the box. We also have JJ and, when he comes back, Buendia competing for positions at the front of the box. Arguably Zaniolo too. So yes, we need cover in the double pivot. To me, Donck in the double pivot is like Olsen is as a GK. Olsen is a competent shot blocker, but today's goalkeepers need to do more, i.e. pass the ball, especially in our system where we pass the ball around in back so much. Donck is a competent ball-winner, but his passing limitations mean he just doesn't fit our system. The problems is, if you find another player who can win the ball and pass, i.e. another Doug or Kamara, he's a good enough player that he's going to want to start and he's going to be expensive. But the "big" clubs have been managing this sort of problem for years. That's part of us moving up in the world. The answer is to get Tim integrated as soon as possible 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam2003 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 02/01/2024 at 18:29, MWARLEY2 said: I really think that part of our gameplan is to avoid nasty 50/50s whererver possible. I cannot remember one really bad tackle made by us and other than Gusto i cannot think of many potential leg breakers against us. We dont dive in much recklessly. Far less than many others anyway. Its all part of our tactics i think. Whats the point of going in for a 50/50 and potentially getting sent off/ or injured. Far better to rely on your teammates to get into position to stop any potential attacks Can you let the Spurs fans know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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