Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

55 minutes ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

GK - Martinez, Olsen

RB - Cash, ???

CB - Konsa, Carlos

CB - Mings, Torres

LB - Moreno, Digne

DM - Kamara, Dendoncker

CM - Luiz, Tielemans

RAM - McGinn, Bailey

LAM - Ramsey, Buendia

CF - Diaby, Zaniolo

ST - Watkins, Duran

 

Who are you selling to replace in this squad? RB is the only spot with a vacancy. There are also a few senior players to sell who don't make the two players per position idea. For me, as well as Chambers, Hause and Traore going when possible, we could look at someone like Frimpong or Dumfries coming in for right back competition. Someone like Ferran Torres may come in whilst Buendia is still out, Ramsey is getting up to speed and Zaniolo has not made quite the impact they may have been hoping for. 

Or we may sign no one. That is a very strong squad that might even be leading the Premier League at Christmas, so who knows?

Back up GK though I wouldn't be surprised if Unai went in with one of the academy keepers at this point.

RB is certainly a natural target.

LB is interesting as we were heavily linked to Acuna and Digne was reportedly shopped plenty but now he's in form. I still think that this might be a medium term target for Unai.

It's not an immediate problem but I can see us targeting a CB the summer of 2025. Mings and Carlos will both be on the other side of 30 with serious cruciate injuries.

CM is certainly going to be bolstered at some point. Unai has been unconvinced by Dendoncker for some time even though he's still being used. Iroegbunam has been making the matchday squad recently but remains to be seen whether he's quality enough to play in the double pivot.

Another right footed attacker was targeted all summer (Torres, Asensio, Goncalves) but was never acquired. Buendia will be some time before he's fully operational which has left us playing Zaniolo and McGinn out of position until JJ was healthy again. In general, I think Unai wants someone versatile enough to play all along the front line and even for Ollie if needed.

So in order of importance for this summer - RB/CDM/Attacker/GK/LB

Edited December 19, 2023 by DJBOB

[CVByrne]

49 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Back up GK though I wouldn't be surprised if Unai went in with one of the academy keepers at this point.

RB is certainly a natural target.

LB is interesting as we were heavily linked to Acuna and Digne was reportedly shopped plenty but now he's in form. I still think that this might be a medium term target for Unai.

It's not an immediate problem but I can see us targeting a CB the summer of 2025. Mings and Carlos will both be on the other side of 30 with serious cruciate injuries.

CM is certainly going to be bolstered at some point. Unai has been unconvinced by Dendoncker for some time even though he's still being used. Iroegbunam has been making the matchday squad recently but remains to be seen whether he's quality enough to play in the double pivot.

Another right footed attacker was targeted all summer (Torres, Asensio, Goncalves) but was never acquired. Buendia will be some time before he's fully operational which has left us playing Zaniolo and McGinn out of position until JJ was healthy again. In general, I think Unai wants someone versatile enough to play all along the front line and even for Ollie if needed.

So in order of importance for this summer - RB/CDM/Attacker/GK/LB

Only Mings has had a cruciate injury. Carlos was his achilles. Summer of 2025 they'll both have just have turned 32, younger than VVD is right now. They should have 2 full seasons at the top at least after that. 

We may move one of them on and have brought in another CB that summer though, I agree. 

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Only Mings has had a cruciate injury. Carlos was his achilles. Summer of 2025 they'll both have just have turned 32, younger than VVD is right now. They should have 2 full seasons at the top at least after that. 

We may move one of them on and have brought in another CB that summer though, I agree. 

Interesting point - didn't realize VVD was that old. And you still got Thiago Silva playing at Chelsea though with our high line - I think Unai will go with a CB that's more mobile.

But I don't think it will be a target for some time. There's plenty of choice to be had between Pau/Konsa/Diego/Mings.

RB/CDM/Attacker would be the three incomings I expect this summer but that will all depend if we can hold onto everyone.

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Interesting point - didn't realize VVD was that old. And you still got Thiago Silva playing at Chelsea though with our high line - I think Unai will go with a CB that's more mobile.

But I don't think it will be a target for some time. There's plenty of choice to be had between Pau/Konsa/Diego/Mings.

RB/CDM/Attacker would be the three incomings I expect this summer but that will all depend if we can hold onto everyone.

I agree. I can't see CB being anything we look at next year. It's something that might be considered in 2025. 

I think we need to focus on our attack. We will play a lot of low block teams and we'll be gifted possession more and more as opponents give us more respect. For that we need different types of attacking players.

Remember next season we'll be near certain to be playing EL or CL and be expected to battle for top 4/5 and try win domestic cups. We're 4 or 5 players short of being able to do that.

RB, CDM, Winger/Fwd, GK and maybe a Striker depending on who the new forward is. 

We then move on Dendoncker, Chambers, Olsen, Traore and Hause. Along with Sanson and hopefully keep Coutinho off the books. 

If we have the guaranteed revenue of the new CL it'll be big for us. Plus we can all hope about City getting relegated as part of their punishment at some point which means at two seasons without them in the top 4/5 picture. 

This could be a very big moment for the club the next few seasons. Especially if we can maximise the commercial side of this as we do well on the pitch. 

[CVByrne]

5 hours ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

GK - Martinez, Olsen

RB - Cash, ???

CB - Konsa, Carlos

CB - Mings, Torres

LB - Moreno, Digne

DM - Kamara, Dendoncker

CM - Luiz, Tielemans

RAM - McGinn, Bailey

LAM - Ramsey, Buendia

CF - Diaby, Zaniolo

ST - Watkins, Duran

 

Who are you selling to replace in this squad? RB is the only spot with a vacancy. There are also a few senior players to sell who don't make the two players per position idea. For me, as well as Chambers, Hause and Traore going when possible, we could look at someone like Frimpong or Dumfries coming in for right back competition. Someone like Ferran Torres may come in whilst Buendia is still out, Ramsey is getting up to speed and Zaniolo has not made quite the impact they may have been hoping for. 

Or we may sign no one. That is a very strong squad that might even be leading the Premier League at Christmas, so who knows?

To be exact on your list. I think you need 22 players, two for every position and then a couple of young players. We've Duran as one young player so he's removed from you senior player list below and probably Sinisalo as our 3rd keeper.

GK - Martinez, Olsen

RB - Cash, ???

CB - Konsa, Carlos

CB - Mings, Torres

LB - Moreno, Digne

DM - Kamara, Dendoncker

CM - Luiz, Tielemans

RAM - McGinn, Bailey

LAM - Ramsey, Buendia

CF - Diaby, Zaniolo

ST - Watkins, ???

 

So we need RB, CDM, Fwd/Winger and GK. We might have a utility player in there too. We might be light with just 4 CBs we might sign a RB/RCB/CDM type player, versatile. We do really lack a right footed winger

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

 

 

So we need RB, CDM, Fwd/Winger and GK. We might have a utility player in there too. We might be light with just 4 CBs we might sign a RB/RCB/CDM type player, versatile. We do really lack a right footed winger

I thought it odd in the beginning of the year too.

We have 5 players (Bailey, Diaby, Zaniolo, Traore, McGinn) who are predominantly left-footed and right-sided players though McGinn has shown to be adaptable enough to play on either side of the pitch this year.

Then, we have only JJ as a right footer.

I think the Buendia injury disrupted the personnel more than we think as Buendia was going to be Unai's McGinn along the LM/RM/SS spots.

[DJBOB]

Part of Unai’s evolution will be scheming against these low blocks.

Sheffied primarily defended in a 541 or 532 and we played our usual 325 in possession. That meant Sheffield always equalized the number of players along the attacking and midfield line and we never had an overload. 
 
If an opponent is disengaged or not up to it as West Ham or Luton were then it doesn’t matter but if they are like Mostar or Palace or Brentford were then he has to take some risk and get an overload. 
 
Dougie or McGinn need to be the extra +1 along the attacking line in certain situations either overlapping the outside or pinning the fullback so that we have a free man. 
 
Its risky as it leaves us with only a 3-1 if Sheffield counter but those are the risks of being at the top of the table and coming up against these low blocks. 

[Kiwivillan]

Free kicks were diabolical. Trying to be cute ended up looking ridiculous

[Farlz]

I fully back our style 100% but games likes tonight and certain away games, playing at 5mph does us absolutely no good whatsoever. 

Teams are clocking onto us now, low block and don't press us. The problem is we haven't got that real creativity to break it down. 

[May-Z]

I keep hearing a lot of worry about not being able to break down a low block. 

We haven't been held by a low block all season. Teams will recognise us as a serious team and set up to stop us. That's the idea of their low block. 

But even last night we had some really good chances to score. Off the top of my head I can think of:

Zaniolo's actual goal.

A goal that was wrongly chalked off. 

Moreno free header similar to his goal at Brentford.

Konsa header at the back post from a corner.

A handball penalty not given

A header for Watkins that was prevented by another penalty from a push in the back and a shirt pull. 

The idea of a low block is to stop chances and prevent clear cut runs on behind...yet we still had more than enough to claim a goal or two, if not more. 

If we get the penalty after 11 mins (and score) or the goal isn't disallowed, then we win that match comfortably in a fairly routine win. 

[Tomaszk]

4 hours ago, May-Z said:

I keep hearing a lot of worry about not being able to break down a low block. 

We haven't been held by a low block all season. Teams will recognise us as a serious team and set up to stop us. That's the idea of their low block. 

But even last night we had some really good chances to score. Off the top of my head I can think of:

Zaniolo's actual goal.

A goal that was wrongly chalked off. 

Moreno free header similar to his goal at Brentford.

Konsa header at the back post from a corner.

A handball penalty not given

A header for Watkins that was prevented by another penalty from a push in the back and a shirt pull. 

The idea of a low block is to stop chances and prevent clear cut runs on behind...yet we still had more than enough to claim a goal or two, if not more. 

If we get the penalty after 11 mins (and score) or the goal isn't disallowed, then we win that match comfortably in a fairly routine win. 

Agree. The team got complacent last night.

If that was...West Ham or Palace or someone middling like that we'd have been right at it the second half. We continued to coast and didn't do enough.

Facing a limited side like that all sat behind the ball was at least good practice for Man Utd.

[Rightdm00]

Honestly calling what Sheffield did a low block is not doing it justice. At times they had all 11 players below the 18 yardbox. They showed no inclination to even attempt an attack.  Missed Buendia badly as he and a player we probably need to acquire in the summer will be needed when coming up against this strategy in the future. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Rightdm00

[Callum]

We can deal without individual players, but the minute you see 3/4 key players out (for example Bouba, Youri, Pau) we just look shakey, noticeably slower & less confident.

Im gonna do a Klopp here though and stress that the crowd last night was dead. Games like that need energy and loud stands. We had the occasional song but there were low murmurs for 80% of that game. We know how positively a full-voice Villa park impacts the players. 

[sne]

1 hour ago, Callum said:

We can deal without individual players, but the minute you see 3/4 key players out (for example Bouba, Youri, Pau) we just look shakey, noticeably slower & less confident.

Im gonna do a Klopp here though and stress that the crowd last night was dead. Games like that need energy and loud stands. We had the occasional song but there were low murmurs for 80% of that game. We know how positively a full-voice Villa park impacts the players. 

I honestly think the news about the stadium renovation plan cancelled/halted might have had a deflating effect on the crowd. It certainly had on me although I wasn't in the crowd.

[TRO]

On 22/12/2023 at 23:07, DJBOB said:

Part of Unai’s evolution will be scheming against these low blocks.

Sheffied primarily defended in a 541 or 532 and we played our usual 325 in possession. That meant Sheffield always equalized the number of players along the attacking and midfield line and we never had an overload. 
 
If an opponent is disengaged or not up to it as West Ham or Luton were then it doesn’t matter but if they are like Mostar or Palace or Brentford were then he has to take some risk and get an overload. 
 
Dougie or McGinn need to be the extra +1 along the attacking line in certain situations either overlapping the outside or pinning the fullback so that we have a free man. 
 
Its risky as it leaves us with only a 3-1 if Sheffield counter but those are the risks of being at the top of the table and coming up against these low blocks. 

 I hope so.

I used to wonder why Man U used to get so many decisions against us, when Fergie was in his pomp......Their intensity, ugency and conviction, forced errors, and they won decisions.

We allowed, Sheff ....to be organised, by playing in front of them and not going at them, or around the back of them.

There have been numerous examples from us, of a similar pattern....I am not being clever, but I was half expecting it, on Friday.

We seem to get fired up, for the big games and we move the ball quicker, but I don't think we have the robust edge in the squad to mix it, in games like that one.....Man U in their pomp, could mix it, and it give them that rounded look as a team....they too, have lost it now.

You move opponents around in fundamentally 2 ways...through skill and guile or Physicality and combative work.....whichever is chosen, disrupting organised defences is crucial to forcing errors.

 

[TRO]

On 22/12/2023 at 23:36, Farlz said:

I fully back our style 100% but games likes tonight and certain away games, playing at 5mph does us absolutely no good whatsoever. 

Teams are clocking onto us now, low block and don't press us. The problem is we haven't got that real creativity to break it down. 

We have, but you have to apply it.

No style, playing slow, will work....the game as a whole relies heavily on pace and moving the ball quickly....sure there are moments, when you play the cat and mouse pace, but that is to create surprise and space....you can't play the whole game, where the opponent has plenty of time to retreat and regroup, playing too many unnecessary passes can equally slow the game down, where a more direct approach, can force errors.

I fully support our style in general....but we have to be able to vary it, a bit more than we do at times...particularly against teams who are intent on just stopping us from playing.

We pride ourselves, that our manager, can change things....but he must have the diversity of player to do that, with any significance....We can change players, with like for like skills, but that doesn't always change the game, unless the changed player is just playing badly, and he wants the same skill factor, but better.

We seen for ourselves on Friday, how that aggressive/assertive run from Zaniolo undone Utd....we simply left it too late, to get the win.....That type of attack, we was crying out for, during the 90 minutes

Its not just creativity.....We see how Haaland and Toney, bully their way to goal( bully with ability).....I see Ollie do it, at times, but maybe not enough....thats why we need extra help.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

22 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

Honestly calling what Sheffield did a low block is not doing it justice. At times they had all 11 players below the 18 yardbox. They showed no inclination to even attempt an attack.  Missed Buendia badly as he and a player we probably need to acquire in the summer will be needed when coming up against this strategy in the future. 

I don't think one of their players would get in our team...so we have to analyse why our superior talent didn't work....and equally didn't work against other teams of a similar ilk.

We can go back to Stevenage, Mostar, or any other team, who knows they can't compete with us in terms of playing football......so we must have other tools to disrupt them.

Sometimes, you have to get in to a scrap and to do that, you need one or two personnel to help you....Thats of course, when the silky skills we normally employ get negated.

We have created Interest, from other quarters, and the word will be, how do we stop them....we have to find a way to negate/ equalise that....that might require a few new faces.

as an analogy.....Wyatt Earp was a good lawman, with a silver tongue, but he needed Doc Holiday now and again.

 

[Tom13]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

Sometimes, you have to get in to a scrap and to do that, you need one or two personnel to help you....Thats of course, when the silky skills we normally employ get negated.

We have created Interest, from other quarters, and the word will be, how do we stop them....we have to find a way to negate/ equalise that....that might require a few new faces.

as an analogy.....Wyatt Earp was a good lawman, with a silver tongue, but he needed Doc Holiday now and again.

I'd disagree and say we need more 'silky skills' in the form of more creativity.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Tom13

[TRO]

1 minute ago, Tom13 said:

I'd disagree and say we need more 'silky skills' in the form of more creativity.

I think we already have it Tom....its just when you have your CDM out, they have to drop back.

Ramsey, is no where near match fit, and his normal self, Tielemans is creative, but missing, Diaby, is not functioning to what we know he can, Bailey can be our biggest threat, and creative.

and dare I mention, Torres, is another creative player.

We simply, can't stock pile creative players...we have enough....and they are all good enough.

We are short of other types....but few, want to admit that.....When Kamara is out, the door blows open, and very few of our players can close it.

Kamara is the platform our team plays off, and when we lose him it shows.....we need quality cover for him, and to ease the demand on him.

 

[Tom13]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think we already have it Tom....its just when you have your CDM out, they have to drop back.

Ramsey, is no where near match fit, and his normal self, Tielemans is creative, but missing, Diaby, is not functioning to what we know he can, Bailey can be our biggest threat, and creative.

and dare I mention, Torres, is another creative player.

We simply, can't stock pile creative players...we have enough....and they are all good enough.

We are short of other types....but few, want to admit that.....When Kamara is out, the door blows open, and very few of our players can close it.

Kamara is the platform our team plays off, and when we lose him it shows.....we need quality cover for him, and to ease the demand on him.

 

Well yeah, our more creative players were missed VS Sheff Utd and sod's law they were all out together.