PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, StewieGriffin said: Controversial one, and it's not my generation, but.... Pele. Scored a tonne of goals in a pub league, and was surrounded by an unbelievable array of talent at national level - someone like Lineker would have scored/achieved a similar amount at national level had he been in the same scenario. Obviously a world class footballer, but best ever? Not even top 5 for me, yet its almost sacrilegious to suggest he wasnt top 2. Discuss. No chance hes the GOAT. At 17 he won the world cup for Brazil when they were rank oustsiders. In 62 he got injured. In 66 at his peak he got kicked out of the world cup in England. In 70 he was the star amongst stars. Wonderful footballer and always so humble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 The recent Pele documentary on Netflix is worth a watch. He really was a great footballer who transformed the fortunes of Brazilian football. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 35 minutes ago, slowandlow said: So the class of 92 factors into being incredible for 15 years lol At absolute best you can claim 10 years as top class, which is significantly less then 15 years of incredible. Hence the massive exaggeration statement. 1 league title in 4 years at Real against a good but not ridiculous Barca is nothing to write home about. Nowhere near in champions league either. Bounced back in 2007 a fair bit granted but he, along with the rest of the galacticos, were performing below top level and below their reputation for a decent part of the mid noughties (especially 2005/6 when you say he won player of the year) I think you can be top class for a decade and incredible for around 15. Either side of him being one of the best wide midfield players and set piece takers in the world he was still extremely good. I.e.: 2/3 years very good ~10 years one of the best 2/3 years very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, theboyangel said: The recent Pele documentary on Netflix is worth a watch. He really was a great footballer who transformed the fortunes of Brazilian football. I will have to watch it. The ginga and Pele. it wasnt just the goals he scored he was the way he played the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewieGriffin Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 16 minutes ago, PaulC said: No chance hes the GOAT. At 17 he won the world cup for Brazil when they were rank oustsiders. In 62 he got injured. In 66 at his peak he got kicked out of the world cup in England. In 70 he was the star amongst stars. Wonderful footballer and always so humble. I absolutely dont deny he was a wonderful footballer, but at the risk of a huge generalisation, he seems to be held up as a bastion of football and immune from any criticism or a hint that he wasn't as good as some people say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Just now, StewieGriffin said: I absolutely dont deny he was a wonderful footballer, but at the risk of a huge generalisation, he seems to be held up as a bastion of football and immune from any criticism or a hint that he wasn't as good as some people say Its people that wern't around at the time he played that are probably the ones that say hes overrated. i accept the argument that some people will say Maradona because he did it with a poor Argentina team and then did great things at Napoli but Pele won three world cups and he was injured in two so missed out on his best years. He was a great embassador for the game and would never have resorted to cheating like Maradona. it was about the spirit of the game to him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowandlow Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 28 minutes ago, Genie said: I think you can be top class for a decade and incredible for around 15. Either side of him being one of the best wide midfield players and set piece takers in the world he was still extremely good. I.e.: 2/3 years very good ~10 years one of the best 2/3 years very good. I just cant get my head round how you can possibly apply the above timeframes to Beckham career tbh. 10 years (11 at a push) encapsulates his entire meaningful career. Theres no 2/3 year build up, 10 years at the top 2/3 year gradual decline in his career at all. More like a couple year build up 5ish years at peak then a dive before a slight recovery, followed by (effectively) early retirement Your timeframes are way off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewieGriffin Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 21 minutes ago, PaulC said: Its people that wern't around at the time he played that are probably the ones that say hes overrated. i accept the argument that some people will say Maradona because he did it with a poor Argentina team and then did great things at Napoli but Pele won three world cups and he was injured in two so missed out on his best years. He was a great embassador for the game and would never have resorted to cheating like Maradona. it was about the spirit of the game to him. Completely get that - Im 36, so Pele was retired for a decade when I was born and Maradona was at the start of his peak. Footage of Maradona is more accessible and I personally find it difficult to rate Pele fairly when I've only ever seen glimpses of his whole game. Pele was clearly a brilliant footballer, but I just have this thing where I find I cant bring myself to say he's the best ever or even towards the top of the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, theboyangel said: The recent Pele documentary on Netflix is worth a watch. He really was a great footballer who transformed the fortunes of Brazilian football. I was expecting a garden variety style doc, but this was good. I'd have liked it to include his NASL years as well, but still good stuff. Amazing old film clips too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 31 minutes ago, slowandlow said: Your timeframes are way off You said yourself he was the best player in his position ‘96 to ‘03 so there’s 7 years. Real Madrid player of the season ending ‘06 so I assume that qualifies amd makes it 8. Then instrumental in winning title in his last season at Madrid ‘07... 9 Not really way off. I think the point is he sustained a very high level over many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 46 minutes ago, PaulC said: Its people that wern't around at the time he played that are probably the ones that say hes overrated. i accept the argument that some people will say Maradona because he did it with a poor Argentina team and then did great things at Napoli but Pele won three world cups and he was injured in two so missed out on his best years. He was a great embassador for the game and would never have resorted to cheating like Maradona. it was about the spirit of the game to him. Pele was clean cut almost to a fault. As for how good he was, I think that even some second and third tier players in 2021are "better", but for the 1960's, he was state of the art. The prototype for what the modern footballer has become. Pele is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, PaulC said: No chance hes the GOAT. At 17 he won the world cup for Brazil when they were rank oustsiders. In 62 he got injured. In 66 at his peak he got kicked out of the world cup in England. In 70 he was the star amongst stars. Wonderful footballer and always so humble. How many times did you see Pele play? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, theboyangel said: The recent Pele documentary on Netflix is worth a watch. He really was a great footballer who transformed the fortunes of Brazilian football. It was a decent doc but covered over some things 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 28 minutes ago, maqroll said: Pele was clean cut almost to a fault. As for how good he was, I think that even some second and third tier players in 2021are "better", but for the 1960's, he was state of the art. The prototype for what the modern footballer has become. Pele is king. Clean cut that his relationship with the Brazilian dictatorship was cleaned over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 31 minutes ago, Zatman said: How many times did you see Pele play? more than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 59 minutes ago, maqroll said: Pele was clean cut almost to a fault. As for how good he was, I think that even some second and third tier players in 2021are "better", but for the 1960's, he was state of the art. The prototype for what the modern footballer has become. Pele is king. Of course just as in other sports the game has improved. No way would Rod Laver be able to compete against Novak Djokovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, PaulC said: more than you maybe but except the World Cup games you cant judge him the best ever unless you were watching Santos weekly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Just now, Zatman said: maybe but except the World Cup games you cant judge him the best ever unless you were watching Santos weekly Yes then it would be Messi. Its all about opinions anyway. Theres no defining stat that makes one player the greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Problem with "best ever" is that I bet if you were to put together the best players from 1995, they would struggle against a well drilled team from 2021 composed of lesser footballers. Pele was probably the best of his time - but now, football is so massive he might have seemed mediocre compared to Grealish, Mount or Sterling if 1964 Pele was put in a time machine to today. For that reason, I would say that Ronaldo and Messi have to be the best ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 But how good would Grealish, Mount or Sterling be if they had to play with a medicine ball and against opponents who could lunge in with both feet off the ground? And how good would Pele be if he was playing with a modern ball and protected by modern referees? End of the day, it's just not possible to compare across eras that far apart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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