Israel, Palestine and Iran

[sne]

Yeah South Africa and Israel used to be good friends during the Apartheid era trading gems for guns while most of the rest of the world had a blockade. Still doesn't devalue the issue raised now.

[bickster]

26 minutes ago, Chindie said:

What would knowing the entire history of South African hypocrisy do to change my position on bringing a case alleging genocide against Israel?

I mean besides letting you think you've won the discussion.

Because that wasn’t the reason the comments were made today as already pointed out numerous times and because everyone needs to view these events through a much wider lens as it is all connected. Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Gaza, Iran, SA, maybe even Taiwan, it’s all connected to the same few countries.

[Chindie]

And I've pointed out that my comments had less than zero about the hyperbolic ball sucking of South Africa. And everything being connected has nothing to do with it either.

Wrongdoing is being done. Someone put it to the court. I don't care that apes started to walk upright in the plains of east Africa and all of humanity resulted. It might make some people feel clever, but it's not the **** point. And I don't care if the accuser is the worst regime to exist in the history of sentient beings. None of changes that wrongdoing is going on and someone asked the court to take a view when nobody else would touch it.

This isn't difficult, you know.

We can go back into the whys and wherefores of the issue, and trust me, you know, I know them. It doesn't change the fact that wrongdoing is happening, and someone stood up and pointed the court at it. And that's the entirety of my position.

[ml1dch]

40 minutes ago, Chindie said:

We can go back into the whys and wherefores of the issue, and trust me, you know, I know them. It doesn't change the fact that wrongdoing is happening, and someone stood up and pointed the court at it. And that's the entirety of my position.

I don't think anyone is really arguing contrary to that position. Perfectly sound, and it's definitely not a bad thing that this is being raised in The Hague, whoever is bringing the case. 

The problem was with South Africa being described as "a beacon of hope and morality". Which is nonsense. 

[Chindie]

Perhaps omariqy can flay his back to the satisfaction of the self satisfied diversionaries and we can get back to discussing the things that actually matter in this topic.

[Panto_Villan]

46 minutes ago, Chindie said:

And I've pointed out that my comments had less than zero about the hyperbolic ball sucking of South Africa. And everything being connected has nothing to do with it either.

Wrongdoing is being done. Someone put it to the court. I don't care that apes started to walk upright in the plains of east Africa and all of humanity resulted. It might make some people feel clever, but it's not the **** point. And I don't care if the accuser is the worst regime to exist in the history of sentient beings. None of changes that wrongdoing is going on and someone asked the court to take a view when nobody else would touch it.

This isn't difficult, you know.

We can go back into the whys and wherefores of the issue, and trust me, you know, I know them. It doesn't change the fact that wrongdoing is happening, and someone stood up and pointed the court at it. And that's the entirety of my position.

The problem isn’t your position, it’s the fact a bunch of people corrected someone who referred to SA as a “beacon of morality” and then you angrily accused them of minimising genocide.

[magnkarl]

It's a never ending loop between the two sets of 'groups' on this to see everything going on, even if someone protests someone's view on SA as an outstanding country, as a dismissal of genocide.

I wonder why it's often the same people who accuse Israel of using a well known genocide in all their arguments, and that they don't see the irony in their own behaviour. The wheels on the bus go round and round with large blinkers for the passengers, be it on the I or P team.

Edited January 27 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

So, the British operated ship hit by Houthi missiles and given assistance and escort by the U.S. navy was carrying Russian oil bought in Greece and heading for Singapore.

Ever got the feeling you’re being had?

 

[Jareth]

Our country is actively undermining the UN. What a joke. 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Our country is actively undermining the UN. What a joke. 

Are you talking about Chris's post re the ship?

[omariqy]

13 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Let’s not let South Africa’s compromised record on being on the right side detract from the fact somebody finally questioned the morality of clearing an ethnic group from their land, turning off their water supply, bombing their hospitals, kettling a population in to small areas and then bombing those areas, and shooting individuals holding white flags.

If it takes a bad actor to call out a murderous fascist regime, so be it. More shame on the white hats for leaving it to the black hats by making it a team game.

Hear hear

[omariqy]

6 hours ago, Chindie said:

Perhaps omariqy can flay his back to the satisfaction of the self satisfied diversionaries and we can get back to discussing the things that actually matter in this topic.

Yeah I just meant in this instance not in general. If someone does something moral then nothing wrong with calling it that. Maybe beacon of hope was too much but let’s focus on the real issue. This whole thread is littered with people picking apart semantics of sentences rather than what is actually happening and what’s right and wrong. 

[omariqy]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

Maybe you should read the post that sparked the posts today, the one that claims that SA is a beacon of hope and morality because it clearly isn’t. It clearly wasn’t some moral objection to what Israel was doing that prompted the case being brought. There's nothing wrong with the case being brought but it really would have been better brought by a more neutral country. SA clearly isn’t what was claimed in the post earlier today

You say you don’t know who SA's buddies are, maybe you should read up in that before offering an opinion. The situation in Sudan is just as bad as Gaza, it just gets much less publicity in the mainstream media.

Which neutral country are we thinking of here?

[Jareth]

I don't really know at what point there is anything to argue about re Israel's war crimes - they are daily executing civilians on camera, yet what we are told is somehow more valid than what we see. We are in a strange bubble at present and at some point that will pop. One hopes. 

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Are you talking about Chris's post re the ship?

No, I imagine he's talking about the fact a number of Western countries have paused funding UNRWA (the UN Palestinian Refugee agency) while they investigate allegations that a number of the employees were involved in the Hamas attack on Israel.

Not really sure what to think about it. I can certainly see why the West doesn't want to be directly funding Hamas members, but it depends how long an investigation is going to take.

[omariqy]

Just now, Panto_Villan said:

No, I imagine he's talking about the fact a number of Western countries have paused funding UNRWA (the UN Palestinian Refugee agency) while they investigate allegations that a number of the employees were involved in the Hamas attack on Israel.

Not really sure what to think about it. I can certainly see why the West doesn't want to be directly funding Hamas members, but it depends how long an investigation is going to take.

Also it seems the allegations (yes allegations not confirmed) is from interrogations and there is a concern it may be forced confessions. We don’t seem to be pausing proving money or weapons when a man gets executed waving a white flag but we will pause aid when a forced interrogation provides some cause for concern. 

[Panto_Villan]

1 minute ago, omariqy said:

Also it seems the allegations (yes allegations not confirmed) is from interrogations and there is a concern it may be forced confessions. We don’t seem to be pausing proving money or weapons when a man gets executed waving a white flag but we will pause aid when a forced interrogation provides some cause for concern. 

As far as I'm aware, Britain isn't pausing military / financial aid to Israel because hasn't sent any at any point in the conflict. Whereas Britain has been funding the UNRWA for the full duration of the conflict.

The US position on Israel here is rather hypocritical, but what's new there? Not sure you can say the same about any of the other countries pausing aid though.

[magnkarl]

7 hours ago, omariqy said:

Also it seems the allegations (yes allegations not confirmed) is from interrogations and there is a concern it may be forced confessions. We don’t seem to be pausing proving money or weapons when a man gets executed waving a white flag but we will pause aid when a forced interrogation provides some cause for concern. 

Even at the best of times UNRWA have helped amplify Hamas’ extremist Islamist agenda through their schools and work with children for years. It’s well documented, and not allegations.

The UN has been weaponised by certain groups, there’s absolutely no doubt. UNRWAs branches in Syria and Lebanon are reportedly worse.

There are plenty of organisations to donate to who won’t have issues like this, so there’s not really a lack of choice either.

Edited January 28 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Even at the best of times UNRWA have helped amplify Hamas’ extremist Islamist agenda through their schools and work with children for years. It’s well documented, and not allegations.

The UN has been weaponised by certain groups, there’s absolutely no doubt. UNRWAs branches in Syria and Lebanon are reportedly worse.

There are plenty of organisations to donate to who won’t have issues like this, so there’s not really a lack of choice either.

So the UN agency, the 12 or so employees out of 30000, have radicalised kids? Pretty sure every time Israel execute a civilian it has a radicalising effect. And also - where has this UN agency issue come from exactly? Literally the day after Israel is ordered by the ICJ to stop being all genocidal - we get this undermining of the UN by the Israel side. BS. 

Edited January 28 by Jareth

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Literally the day after Israel is ordered by the ICJ to stop being all genocidal - we get this undermining of the UN by the Israel side

The cynic in me says “this”.  For a country that ought to be and could be a beacon of light, Israel has just fallen, or its politicians have fallen, so so far below any kind of rational, humane, decent standards. Yes the country is the victim of numerous zealots and religious peckerheads and embedded hatred, but they’ve just sunk so far they’re at least as bad.