Israel, Palestine and Iran

[KentVillan]

What right does anyone have to a plot of land? We all know it originates with someone centuries or thousands of years ago, or maybe just 50 years ago, forcibly taking it from someone else.

Any argument that assumes this wasn’t the case is absurd.

The way we’ve since resolved this is with nation states and property rights and capitalism. You can rail against the rights and wrongs of that, but Israel / Palestine is no different in this regard from any other country.

So ultimately it’s a question of what happens now, what the political and diplomatic approach to securing peace is.

To dismiss Palestinians as merely “villagers” on land that was up for grabs is as absurd as dismissing multigenerational Israeli Jewish families in Tel Aviv as thieves. The solution has to be forward looking, not an endless and pointless debate about the past.

[Mr_Dogg]

5 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

My statement: So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

Your delusion: You are advocating survival of the fittest but for countries.

Just stop ok

Maybe you could expand on what you mean?

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

My statement: So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

Your delusion: You are advocating survival of the fittest but for countries.

It may be a language thing, but you do appear to be saying exactly that which you call “a delusion”.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

It may be a language thing, but you do appear to be saying exactly that which you call “a delusion”.

And in more than one post. It’s been a repeated statement.

[Chindie]

Its there in black and white. Palestine deserves to be eradicated by a country that was literally created in living memory unilaterally by outside forces.

**** disgusting. Unacceptably so. I don't think VT should be a platform for that shit.

[HolteExile]

Not sure why some of y'all are still responding in good faith when it's clear this fella is on a wind up. 

Take an extreme alt right position, litter that extreme position with cack spelling and wanky fonts. Then complain that people are not tolerant of your radical thinking. 

Next there will be references to wokeness, lack of free speech and so on. 

[El Segundo]

48 minutes ago, bickster said:

It’s 2023, that absolutely irrelevant at this juncture

I’m not saying the UN is fit for purpose

What you and others choose to recognise is absolutely irrelevant. Israel exists and the fact that it does and should continue to needs to be a accepted before any meaningful dialogue can take place.

Israel is an internationally recognised legal entity at this stage, arguing about the legality of what happened in 1947 is somewhat irrelevant. 

If you think the UN resolution of 1947 is irrelevant what is the basis of the "legal right" to exist in those lands?

[Tumblerseven]

27 minutes ago, blandy said:

It may be a language thing, but you do appear to be saying exactly that which you call “a delusion”.

In that comment im describing the reality of how external pressures work i think i can do that without being accused of advocating for it.

Quote

So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

What happens to a worker who cant compete or keep up with the job he gets fired! What happens to the restaurant that cant compete or keep up with the market it get shut down. Does world owe that worker a job and that restaurant a business? NO

If i describe you breathing it doesnt mean im advocating for it. right?

This is my second language and im shocked that you people actually cant see the difference between describing(explaining) and advocating.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[chrisp65]

Despite what our PM might think, these things do not happen in a vacuum.

We have not had a situation where a few hundred murderers have independently suddenly struck and an army has suddenly formed and struck back, with both sides killing families and sowing the seeds of the next generation of murderers. No context, nobody facilitating it.

These events happen because enough sick people have views that condone it or accept it, and enough people just quietly politely hope it will go away Then it’s too late because you can’t stand up to Hamas like you can’t stand up to the IDF. You can only call out the individuals that put in the ground work to make it acceptable. The polite, not challenging the ones with disgusting murderers views on ethnic cleansing. When you can’t point out the murder is facilitated by making it politically acceptable, shit happens, real genuine shit where heads are kicked down streets as footballs and grandmothers are crushed under concrete in a sandwich with babies and paramedics. People that are ok with ethnic cleansing cause ethnic cleansing. People that can condone ethnic cleansing, that can think either side has the right to murder the other side until they are extinct are responsible for that happening. 

It does not happen in a vacuum. 

 

 

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

In that comment im describing the reality of how external pressures work i think i can do that without being accused of advocating for it.

If i describe you breathing it doesnt mean im advocating for it. right?

This is my second language and im shocked that you people actually cant see the difference between describing and advocating.

A good reply. The difficulty I have is that you wrote that no country has an inherent right to exist. You wrote that cleansing a country of its people was acceptable to you under the circumstances, you wrote that failed countries don’t deserve to exist if they fail. All of that looks awfully like advocating for Palestine to cease to exist, as a way out of the current terrible situation. Or survival of the fittest, in short.

I completely disagree with you, but I think I can perhaps understand why someone with connections to Israel might hold those views after 7 Oct.

[Tumblerseven]

20 minutes ago, blandy said:

A good reply. The difficulty I have is that you wrote that no country has an inherent right to exist. You wrote that cleansing a country of its people was acceptable to you under the circumstances, you wrote that failed countries don’t deserve to exist if they fail. All of that looks awfully like advocating for Palestine to cease to exist, as a way out of the current terrible situation. Or survival of the fittest, in short.

I completely disagree with you, but I think I can perhaps understand why someone with connections to Israel might hold those views after 7 Oct.

Didint you agree that countries dont have inherent right to exist? i think you did.

Do you understand that cleansing population is natural process of creation of the country? You take similar population and you kick out unsimilar population and you create a country. That process was done for thousands of years. Its natural country creation process. its not inherently bad. And sometimes its necessary. I could explain that but you refused to engage with hypotheticals because it looks bad.

I wrote that failed countries dont deserve to exist. Oh man im such a bad guy that i believe that country who cant govern itself and cant protect its borders and people and cant take care of its people should not exist. "Very VERY  controversial"

I think letting people endlessly suffer in a failed state is more cruel than just changing a name of country electing different government implementing better systems and trying again so people can prosper and live normally. 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[El Segundo]

7 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Didint you agree that countries dont have inherent right to exist? i think you did.

Do you understand that cleansing population is natural process of creation of the country? You take similar population and you kick out unsimilar population and you create a country. That process was done for thousands of years. Its natural country creation process. its not inherently bad. And sometimes its necessary. I could explain that but you refused to engage with hypotheticals because it looks bad.

I wrote that failed countries dont deserve to exist. Oh man im such a bad guy that i believe that country who cant govern itself and cant protect its borders and people and cant take care of its people should not exist. "Very VERY  controversial"

I think letting people endlessly suffer in a failed state is more cruel than just changing a name of country electing different government implementing better systems and trying again so people can prosper and live normally. 

 

Blimey.  Where do you start?

[HolteExile]

I think you're right. 

Israel clearly can't keep its citizens safe and often draws parallels with apartheid South Africa - even during relatively quiet periods. 

Definition of a failed state, that. Trying since 1947, still can't get it right. 

Turn it over to the Palestinians, the Bedouins or any other deserving cause. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by HolteExile

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

I dont understand why some people think that world owes Palestinians a Palestine.

 

4 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

example: If i say i want to eat pork but i am against pig being killed its nonsensical. I am literally the reason why pig gets killed. 

 

14 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Do you understand that cleansing population is natural process of creation of the country? You take similar population and you kick out unsimilar population and you create a country. That process was done for thousands of years. Its natural country creation process. its not inherently bad. And sometimes its necessary.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

if you will try to argue that Palestinian villagers had a land in there and they lived in there. I dont care

 

1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said:

This is some crazy stuff happening where people like @Mr_Dogg and @Chindie and others purposefully trying to misunderstand me and ignore what i am actually saying and just trying to demonize me and paint me like an evil person. I dont think thats acceptable. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. :)

 

 

[VILLAMARV]

10 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

So i dont think that population cleansing is inherently a bad thing.

[Tumblerseven]

9 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 agrees with ethnic cleansing is not where I expected to be.

8 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

but yeah, I’ll go and paint a wall for an hour, wouldn’t want to be seen as the guy that spoiled the debate on ethnic cleansing

On 03/11/2023 at 11:29, chrisp65 said:

I stole my house 75 years ago and the dumb **** I stole it off, well I killed him, but his relatives still sit in next door’s garden.

Hardly my problem is it.

[VILLAMARV]

Shameless

[Chindie]

I dunno, it's really winning over hearts and minds for the Israeli cause.

...

Wait, no, the other thing.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Chindie

[VILLAMARV]

 

2 hours ago, blandy said:

It may be a language thing

It's not a language thing. it's quite clearly and demonstrably a disingenuous thing. Olive branches only work in a meaningful exchange.

Edited November 5, 2023 by VILLAMARV
sp

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I dunno, it's really winning over hearts and minds for the Israeli cause.

...

Wait, no, the other thing.

I’ve actually started to wonder if its some over thought Hamas double agent ninja shit.