Tumblerseven Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, KentVillan said: Let’s be realistic, no state exists in an isolated vacuum. There has been an awful lot of interference in Palestinian state building by Israel, other neighbours, western powers, and so on, and you can’t necessarily blame ordinary Palestinians split across two separate territories for not making a stellar job of this in the circumstances. Hamas itself was sponsored by elements in Israel to displace the PLO and Fatah, and there has been blowback from that. So every state ever existed was influenced and interfered by other countries. Those who handle become stronger and survive those who cant handle vanish. Its like natural process. I think you absolutely can blame Palestine and Palestinians if they cant handle that thats literally their responsibility to handle it if they want to have a country. A stellar job So they did a decent job in your opinion not stellar but acceptable?? I think they did really bad job. I keep hearing from people and it triggers me. They not responsible they not responsible they not responsible they not responsible. They are not responsible that they have terrorist government. They are not responsible that after 3 days of war their water and food is gone. Hamas apparently didint get the memo that you can store those things. Someone told them how to store the bullets but forgot to mention how to store food and water. They not responsible that after 3 days of war they have 0 generators to provide for their hospitals. They have plenty of rockets but they just cant put their hands on the **** generator its like mythical creature to them they just cant catch one. I keep hearing these things and i think its really gross to treat these people like inept children. People want to give them a state free palestine but they treat them like they are slow or something. I dont understand its crazy to me. After they will get the state will they be responsible for anything? or UN and israel will be responsible for them because of 80 years of oppressions? how long 100 years? when is it going to stop? Do palestine have the right and freedom to fail as a country? Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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KentVillan Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tumblerseven said: So every state ever existed was influenced and interfered by other countries. Those who handle become stronger and survive those who cant handle vanish. Its like natural process. I think you absolutely can blame Palestine and Palestinians if they cant handle that thats literally their responsibility to handle it if they want to have a country. A stellar job So they did a decent job in your opinion not stellar but acceptable?? I think they did really bad job. I keep hearing from people and it triggers me. They not responsible they not responsible they not responsible they not responsible. They are not responsible that they have terrorist government. They are not responsible that after 3 days of war their water and food is gone. Hamas apparently didint get the memo that you can store those things. Someone told them how to store the bullets but forgot to mention how to store food and water. They not responsible that after 3 days of war they have 0 generators to provide for their hospitals. They have plenty of rockets but they just cant put their hands on the **** generator its like mythical creature to them they just cant catch one. I keep hearing these things and i think its really gross to treat these people like inept children. People want to give them a state free palestine but they treat them like they are slow or something. I dont understand its crazy to me. After they will get the state will they be responsible for anything? or UN and israel will be responsible for them because of 80 years of oppressions? how long 100 years? when is it going to stop? Do palestine have the right and freedom to fail as a country? I think as far as opinion in this thread goes I am closer to yours than most, so worth trying to find some common ground maybe. Wasn’t claiming the Palestinian leadership have done even an okay job, nor that their leadership can be absolved of responsibility… but there are still many innocent civilians who are completely powerless and blameless. In the same way we shouldn’t hold Israelis (or even worse, the wider Jewish population) responsible for the crimes of leaders and governments, we shouldn’t hold Palestinians responsible for the actions of theirs. Try to stay calm in the debate, even if the situation itself is completely shocking for all involved. I know that’s much easier for me to say as someone with no dog in the fight, and I sympathise with your position, but you’re picking fights with people who are open to listening and discussing rationally. Edit: and FWIW, to draw a parallel example, I feel exactly the same way about ordinary Russians, who many expect to stand up to Putin despite the deluge of propaganda and appalling odds if they even wanted to act. Civilians are mostly innocent in these situations. Edited November 4, 2023 by KentVillan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said: I keep hearing from people and it triggers me. They not responsible they not responsible they not responsible they not responsible. They are not responsible that they have terrorist government. Christ not this again. It’s like a broken record. Correct, they aren't responsible. I'm not responsible for the actions of my government and my government still has an electoral mandate which Hamas do not, it’s 17 years since they were elected and half of the population of Gaza didn’t even have the opportunity to vote for them, they have no mandate and the people have even less responsibility for their actions than I do for the governemnt in power in the UK. Similarly an Israeli is not responsible for its governments actions. You really need to accept that 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 18 minutes ago, bickster said: Christ not this again. It’s like a broken record. Correct, they aren't responsible. I'm not responsible for the actions of my government and my government still has an electoral mandate which Hamas do not, it’s 17 years since they were elected and half of the population of Gaza didn’t even have the opportunity to vote for them, they have no mandate and the people have even less responsibility for their actions than I do for the governemnt in power in the UK. Similarly an Israeli is not responsible for its governments actions. You really need to accept that There's an interesting point here, I do not feel responsible for our shitshow of as government, I've voted against them at every opportunity and made sure my MP knows I think he's a word removed. But surely we're collectively responsible, as a country, for the **** idiots we've elected. As you highlight though, Hamas, 17 years, etc, makes it quite a different scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 1 minute ago, Davkaus said: There's an interesting point here, I do not feel responsible for our shitshow of as government, I've voted against them at every opportunity and made sure my MP knows I think he's a word removed. But surely we're collectively responsible, as a country, for the **** idiots we've elected. As you highlight though, Hamas, 17 years, etc, makes it quite a different scenario. It’s a little nuanced I think. Collectively as a population, yes. Personally as an individual, no. Israel is blowing up individuals, though granted its trying to do it collectively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, bickster said: It’s a little nuanced I think. Collectively as a population, yes. Personally as an individual, no. Israel is blowing up individuals, though granted its trying to do it collectively. So wait you will disagree with me when i say they meaning (population) but then you agree with this guy and will say yes but its nuanced if people dont talk about individuals. 7000 individuals who got bombed are part of a population israel is bombing gazas population.. Am i misunderstanding something what is happening? Oh wait you are saying they are not democratically elected so they are not responsible. I understood. Just to clarify you are saying that democratic countries population bear some kind of responsibility for their governments actions. @KentVillan My communication style might be confrontational but i dont think im picking fights. If i disagree passionately i dont think im picking fights. Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 8 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: So wait you will disagree with me when i say they meaning (population) but then you agree with this guy and will say yes but its nuanced if people dont talk about individuals. 7000 individuals who got bombed are part of a population israel is bombing gazas population.. Am i misunderstanding something what is happening? @KentVillan My communication style might be confrontational but i dont think im picking fights. If i disagree passionately i dont think im picking fights. I have no idea what point are attempting to communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, bickster said: I have no idea what point are attempting to communicate. Oh i apologize i wasnt clear. If you believe that democratic population who held democratic elections are in some way responsible for their governments actions. Can you right now admit and say that when in 2006 gaza palestinian population who democratically elected an established terrorist organization bears some kind of responsibility for their governments actions. For a few years at least. 2006 Palestinian legislative election - Wikipedia Quote Independent Observer reactions[edit] The National Democratic Institute (NDI) in partnership with The Carter Center reported "a professional and impartial performance of election officials".[28] The European Union delegation reported "there was nothing which would indicate that the final result was not the outcome chosen by the voters".[29] A CRS Report for Congress on the 2006 elections concluded: "The election was overseen by 17,268 domestic observers, complemented by 900 credentialed international monitors. ... The Bush Administration accepted the outcome of the Palestinian legislative elections and praised the PA for holding free and fair elections. ... The conduct of the election was widely considered to be free and fair." Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Oh i apologize i wasnt clear. If you believe that democratic population who held democratic elections are in some way responsible for their governments actions. Can you right now admit and say that when in 2006 gaza palestinian population who democratically elected an established terrorist organization bears some kind of responsibility for their governments actions. For a few years at least. 2006 Palestinian legislative election - Wikipedia If you can’t see how a 2006 election in a country with a median age of 19.5 is absolutely irrelevant then you aren’t discussing this in good faith. A person would have to be 16 years older than the median age to even have been given the opportunity to vote the last time an election was held. The point you appear to be trying to make is beyond stupid. Hamas do not have a democratic mandate, not by any accepted definition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bickster said: If you can’t see how a 2006 election in a country with a median age of 19.5 is absolutely irrelevant then you aren’t discussing this in good faith. A person would have to be 16 years older than the median age to even have been given the opportunity to vote the last time an election was held. The point you appear to be trying to make is beyond stupid. Hamas do not have a democratic mandate, not by any accepted definition. So i think you are actually arguing in bad faith and trying to be purposefully obtuse to dodge the answers or taking positions. Im not talking about 2023 i didint mentioned 2023 once. ONCE. IM TALKING ABOUT 2006. im done engaging with you. Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Shouting again. How’s that working out for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 I feel like I must have missed a couple of days of narrative. Why are there now crowds of people with Palestinian flags yelling at families in McDonalds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 14 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: So i think you are actually arguing in bad faith and trying to be purposefully obtuse to dodge the answers or taking positions. Im not talking about 2023 i didint mentioned 2023 once. ONCE. IM TALKING ABOUT 2006. im done engaging with you. Everyone else you are engaging with on the specific point you were making as in “all I keep hearing…” are talking about the here and now not 17 years ago, so you can talk about 2006 all you like, it doesn’t make it a valid point or even useful. Nailed on that you'll reply 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 42 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Oh i apologize i wasnt clear. If you believe that democratic population who held democratic elections are in some way responsible for their governments actions. Can you right now admit and say that when in 2006 gaza palestinian population who democratically elected an established terrorist organization bears some kind of responsibility for their governments actions. For a few years at least. 2006 Palestinian legislative election - Wikipedia The link shows that Hamas got 44% of the vote in 2006, on a turnout of 75%. So about 33% of the 2006 population can take some responsibility, and an even smaller fraction of the present day population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, KentVillan said: The link shows that Hamas got 44% of the vote in 2006, on a turnout of 75%. So about 33% of the 2006 population can take some responsibility, and an even smaller fraction of the present day population. Thank you for your answer. and i agree. Thats a good faith engagement some people should learn from you. Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Tumblerseven said: @VILLAMARV you ok buddy? you wanted to ask me a question or something? I think im here in a minority who actually will answer questions and have strong position about stuff and not try to weasel out of difficult questions or dog-whistle endlessly. Of all the f***witted posts I've had to contend with over the years yours are without a doubt the most pathetic and disingenuous of the lot. Of course I don't want "to ask you a question or something" . I've asked you plenty of direct questions and you've ignored them all! Hence your undeniable, on the record hypocrisy. I'm the word removed you have made personal accusations about in this thread. Including ones calling me a hypocrite. You have posted some of the most childish responses to any posts I have ever witnessed in my many years on this site. And yet here we are.Feel free to prove what you say by completely changing the personality and attitude that your posts project to the outside world, or, alternatively, just carry on acting and conversing like a spoilt child. But your posts, just extreme merriment. The world outside your echo chamber is laughing at you. Edited November 4, 2023 by VILLAMARV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 4, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I feel like I must have missed a couple of days of narrative. Why are there now crowds of people with Palestinian flags yelling at families in McDonalds? McDs gave free food to IDF soldiers. Starbucks an Disney also in firing line apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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