Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/

Out of interest, what do you think of what you call ‘the other side’s’ response to what is going on? SA, Qatar and the like?

Blaming Europe and the US when the rich Arab uncles are doing literally nothing to help what they call brothers seems a bit rich.

Edited October 28, 2023 by magnkarl

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

18 minutes ago, a-k said:

It's bizarre to me how people can find any rationale for what Hamas did.

Yes... Yes... This is exactly what I'm going .

I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually ffs.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

12 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Out of interest, what do you think of what you call ‘the other side’s’ response to what is going on? SA, Qatar and the like?

Blaming Europe and the US when the rich Arab uncles are doing literally nothing to help what they call brothers seems a bit rich.

Defo another debate.

And yes, people this side are pissed about that as well.

In fairness, they do send alot of aid, funding and build crucial infrastructure ( Hospitals, schools etc - mostly now obliterated ).

However the question is why they don't accept any refugees.

As a poster said earlier, sad reality it's a scale of interests Vs morality.

Geopolitics is an extremely tricky game.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[a-k]

22 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Yes... Yes... This is exactly what I'm going .

I'm sure you'll figure it out eventually ffs.

Then why use the date of Oct 7 in your argument? Like you said, history also didn't begin in 2005, or 1967, or 1948. No need to be condescending, not everyone jumped into this conflict three weeks ago.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

17 minutes ago, a-k said:

Then why use the date of Oct 7 in your argument? Like you said, history also didn't begin in 2005, or 1967, or 1948. No need to be condescending, not everyone jumped into this conflict three weeks ago.

Your pretense of ignorance to the rationale behind my post is what is actually condescending.

I'm pretty sure you aren't thick, and once someone is at a starting point of tunnel vision, without any acceptance of nuance, there is not much further to go with any sort of debate 

Go back through the last few pages of the thread, there are facts and figures there which don't need much explanation beyond the obvious.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[VILLAMARV]

16 hours ago, blandy said:

7000 dead people. I'm not playing silly buggers here, or trivialising even one death, but there's propaganda at play. WHo says 7000 dead? is it Hamas, perhaps? I mean who's actually counting? It's awful, whether it's 7, 70 or 7000. But we don't know (and I don't trust) the figures given. Same as with the 500 killed in a hospital thing. IT's just a number put out there by someone. Which isn't in any way to minimise the appalling brutality of what Hamas and Israel have done so far.

common sense would say leave it alone and therefore I feel compelled to put my stick in the hornets nest and waggle it about a bit, but I follow you here fwiw and don't think you're automatically minimising anything by saying it either imho. I'd slighly ammend it myself to be less about propaganda and more a general point about statistics. And about how the 24hr news cycle uses those statistics. But I'd also add, OBE is right - one of the things the WHO is good at is counting the dead. And I'd say in gaza and the west bank they've had plenty of practice to hone their skills.

But it often takes time and for things to settle until a clearer picture of events becomes evident. true of reported news and definitely true in the world of statistics.

I was also watching a horrible documentary about the Soham murders the other day and there was the point about rubbish in = rubbish out with the media, it wasn't intentional propaganda or an intention to mislead, but incorrect information was parrotted as fact in the clamour to feed the beast that is the distraction economy. It doesn't have to be propaganda though, it could just be good journalism of bad information or spurious statistics.

but at the same time, in this instance, if we're wondering about whether its 5000 or 7000 or 10000 dead it's still genocide either way and I think your post I quoted conveys that.

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, a-k said:

In fact, when I gave a history lesson in response to another post, no one further replied to it because it's not what they wanted to hear.

U wot mate?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

38 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

common sense would say leave it alone and therefore I feel compelled to put my stick in the hornets nest and waggle it about a bit, but I follow you here fwiw and don't think you're automatically minimising anything by saying it either imho. I'd slighly ammend it myself to be less about propaganda and more a general point about statistics. And about how the 24hr news cycle uses those statistics. But I'd also add, OBE is right - one of the things the WHO is good at is counting the dead. And I'd say in gaza and the west bank they've had plenty of practice to hone their skills.

But it often takes time and for things to settle until a clearer picture of events becomes evident. true of reported news and definitely true in the world of statistics.

I was also watching a horrible documentary about the Soham murders the other day and there was the point about rubbish in = rubbish out with the media, it wasn't intentional propaganda or an intention to mislead, but incorrect information was parrotted as fact in the clamour to feed the beast that is the distraction economy. It doesn't have to be propaganda though, it could just be good journalism of bad information or spurious statistics.

but at the same time, in this instance, if we're wondering about whether its 5000 or 7000 or 10000 dead it's still genocide either way and I think your post I quoted conveys that.

Mate a couple of weeks ago I read something saying that 45 families ( Not like a child Mom and Dad ). As in entire bloodlines have been removed from the Palestinian registry, 45 entire bloodlines meaning from the nucleus ( Think Great Great Grands etc to current ). Imagine your whole ancestry and last name wiped off the earth.

I also saw something today saying the academic year is cancelled ( Not just because of the obvious ) but because basically all the students have been killed.

They have nowhere to go, and everywhere they think they can go gets bombed. No communication method makes it an even more chaotic massacre.

So when people come with the " are you trying to justify what Hamas have done rhetoric " when you point out that 10 times ( Minimum ) the amount of Palestinian civilians and children, CHILDREN have been slaughtered it boils my blood. ( As if there aren't much deeper reference points here )

Has anyone asked themselves how Hamas were/are allowed to exist in the first place?

These people have no army, no protection, nothing, so whatever it may look like to us from the comfort of our homes, means nothing to the suffering people on the ground who may see it as " at least somebody is trying to stand up for us ". Whether that " justification " is right or wrong.

Back to " figures " gate, apparently the names, ID numbers et al have been released.

In my view, common sense would tell that in a place as densely populated as Gaza, with limited places to seek refuge, coupled with indiscriminate bombing, the death tolls will be extremely high.

As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if eventually it's actually higher than what is being reported in the end.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[VILLAMARV]

I don't disagree JV, obviously it's been quite the week on the Israel thread. Others have labelled me a terrorist minimiser and justifier so what do I know. Hamas scum like me need sorting out or some such. It's hard to keep up with what I think sometimes.

[bickster]

3 hours ago, Rustibrooks said:

Which is fair but i was looking at it more from the stand point that they can relate to what’s going on to some degree. But im not ignorant on the fact that they would have to abstain/veto in any situation to appease the countries backing them. 

The facts of the matter are that Hamas went onto Israeli territory and massacred Israelis

I'm not sure your drawing of a parallel between Ukraine / Palestine is viewing the current situation through the lens a Ukrainian would

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

The facts of the matter are that Hamas went onto Israeli territory and massacred Israelis

This is a standard day for Palestinians, you do realise this right?

Replace Hamas with IDF and Israeli with Palestinian.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

This is a standard day for Palestinians, you do realise this right?

Replace Hamas with IDF and Israeli with Palestinian.

You are completely missing the point of the post which is to say how other countries view this. You saying it’s a daily occurrence when flipped is fine but the world isn’t viewing this situation the same way you are, they are reacting to the events of Oct 7th and what has happened since.

[bobzy]

The sad thing, for me, is the complete disregard for human life.

I know “we” in the West have been as abhorrent, but I don’t remember the US/UN just blanket bombing Pakistan after 9/11.

Maybe I’m remembering it incorrectly. 

[Rustibrooks]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

The facts of the matter are that Hamas went onto Israeli territory and massacred Israelis

I'm not sure your drawing of a parallel between Ukraine / Palestine is viewing the current situation through the lens a Ukrainian would

I’ve not disputed what Hamas has done, as echoed by many it was a terrible day. I just maintain that Israel could’ve handled this better and that currently they are going too far imo. 

I’ve said I’m surprised Ukraine has abstained because they are in similar situations as Palestinians are minus the fact that Hamas launched an attack on Israel. It might not be through the scope of a Ukrainian but people can draw parallels I’m sure(Russia doing war crimes, same with the IDF etc). At the end of the day there’s probably more than one reason for a country to abstain from voting on this.

[bickster]

11 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

 

I’ve not disputed what Hamas has done, as echoed by many it was a terrible day. I just maintain that Israel could’ve handled this better and that currently they are going too far imo. 
 

I’ve said I’m surprised Ukraine has abstained because they are in similar situations as Palestinians are minus the fact that Hamas launched an attack on Israel. It might not be through the scope of a Ukrainian but people can draw parallels I’m sure(Russia doing war crimes, same with the IDF etc). At the end of the day there’s probably more than one reason for a country to abstain from voting on this. 
 

 

 

 

On a very simplistic level, why would Ukraine side with a country controlled by Hamas who are funded by Russian allies Iran?

[Rustibrooks]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

On a very simplistic level, why would Ukraine side with a country controlled by Hamas who are funded by Russian allies Iran?

They wouldn’t and that’s why I’ve said I understand it in geopolitical terms. I’m talking on a humanitarian level, it’s the same reason why I posted after I’m ashamed of a lot of the countries there. I’m looking beyond that and I’m assuming the countries that voted in favour for a ceasefire think the same no? 

France have good relations with US/Israel etc but they also voted in favour for a ceasefire

[magnkarl]

5 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Defo another debate.

And yes, people this side are pissed about that as well.

In fairness, they do send alot of aid, funding and build crucial infrastructure ( Hospitals, schools etc - mostly now obliterated ).

However the question is why they don't accept any refugees.

As a poster said earlier, sad reality it's a scale of interests Vs morality.

Geopolitics is an extremely tricky game.

But when you look at the figures of aid to Gaza it’s not ‘the other side’ that is anywhere near the top. It’s the EU and independent European countries, China, Turkey and so forth.

The faux outrage from Palestinian people’s ‘brothers’ around the Middle East is almost as bad as the US/UK response. Coming on here and asking people to then look at media from a side which seems content just to sit back and whip up their populations with anti-Israel and anti-Jew rhetoric while their brothers are dying is not exactly par for the course.

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

The sad thing, for me, is the complete disregard for human life.

I know “we” in the West have been as abhorrent, but I don’t remember the US/UN just blanket bombing Pakistan after 9/11.

Maybe I’m remembering it incorrectly. 

I was a kid but I distinctly remember seeing Iraq getting getting bombed to hell and back on the news seemingly every day. It was over a much longer period granted, but conservative estimates are that hundreds of thousands of civilians died. I think by this point in the invasion, the numbers were similar (the numbers we have anyway, before someone says they're coming from Hamas).

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

17 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I was a kid but I distinctly remember seeing Iraq getting getting bombed to hell and back on the news seemingly every day. It was over a much longer period granted, but conservative estimates are that hundreds of thousands of civilians died. I think by this point in the invasion, the numbers were similar (the numbers we have anyway, before someone says they're coming from Hamas).

Another note, while people like Obama hard charm, swagger, political savvy and could talk the pants off a Nun.

Worth remembering during his tenor they were routinely drone bombing the shit out of the region as well.

Many civilian casualties 

[Rustibrooks]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

But when you look at the figures of aid to Gaza it’s not ‘the other side’ that is anywhere near the top. It’s the EU and independent European countries, China, Turkey and so forth.

The faux outrage from Palestinian people’s ‘brothers’ around the Middle East is almost as bad as the US/UK response. Coming on here and asking people to then look at media from a side which seems content just to sit back and whip up their populations with anti-Israel and anti-Jew rhetoric while their brothers are dying is not exactly par for the course.

Definitely agree with this, they are just as bad by sitting on their hands putting out statements etc. I felt the same about the Sudan situation with a lot of Middle Eastern/Muslim majority countries. Without wanting to sound like I’m generalising/stereotyping but they clearly only care about the money like most countries and people do.