Israel, Palestine and Iran

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

 

[Thug]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

There's that arrogance I was talking about. I've not expressed much of an opinion either way so you're just throwing punches at strawmen.

I'm happy to admit I've got very little idea what's going on. I've seen the removed tweets from Israeli reps, I've seen videos that claim to show a rocket launched from Palestine exploding. I've seen videos that claim to be from today that seem to show the hospital still standing, with no evidence for these hundreds and hundreds of casualties?

What's real, what's fake news? 

Oh it’s all fake news.

Theres not even air strikes.

water is flowing like it’s never flowed before.

2 people died in the last 6 days.  One from a heart attack, and one jumped off a bridge because he’s a chelsea fan.

[Panto_Villan]

9 minutes ago, Thug said:

It came from the Israelis themselves! They tweeted they bombed the hospital!!!

Oh my god.  

As far as I’m aware, the tweet you’re talking about came from an Israeli who had once worked with Netanyahu but no longer has any links with the government and is just a random Twitter “influencer” looking for clicks.

It’s hardly a smoking gun, especially when compared to literal photos posted by Hamas that show the damage looked nothing like an Israeli bomb (and only affected the car park). Even the claim of 500 dead seems to have come directly from a Hamas-controlled ministry.

[Thug]

3 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

Give me 30 minutes and I’ll make video showing a white blob appearing from the other direction.

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, Thug said:

Oh it’s all fake news.

Theres not even air strikes.

water is flowing like it’s never flowed before.

2 people died in the last 6 days.  One from a heart attack, and one jumped off a bridge because he’s a chelsea fan.

See, I'm trying trying to engage in good faith and explain about the contrary claims that muddy the water, with no real preconceptions or a particular view I want to believe, and this is the rubbish you come back with

Much easier to just deflect and call everyone idiots. You crack on.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Davkaus

[AvfcRigo82]

17 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It's a bit arrogant to think this only goes one way though. In the fog of war, in a age in which so much can be faked and fake news spreads at the speed of light, there's very little information that can really be trusted.

Not sure why you want to brand it arrogant? I agree, of course it doesn't go just one way. It works both ways.

My comment was merely pointing to the so-called main stream media of this country that people watch the news and buy the newspapers and believe most of the shit that is printed or that they hear.

As for websites and social media too, yes, I am under no illusion that is too awash nowadays with fake news.

[Davkaus]

Just now, AvfcRigo82 said:

Not sure why you want to brand it arrogant? I agree, of course it doesn't go just one way. It works both ways.

My comment was merely pointing to the so-called main stream media of this country that people watch the news and buy the newspapers and believe most of the shit that is printed or that they hear.

As for websites and social media too, yes, I am under no illusion that is too awash nowadays with fake news.

Wasn't a criticism of you, sorry I worded it clumsily, I agree with your view and was just frustrated at some of the other posts on recent pages that suggest people are stupid for believing someone's propaganda, but here's some other propaganda you should take at face value.

[Thug]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

See, I'm trying trying to engage in good faith and explain about the contrary claims that muddy the water, with no real preconceptions or a particular view I want to believe, and this is the rubbish you come back with

Much easier to just deflect and call everyone idiots. You crack on.

But what is it that you’re unsure of?

What exactly is it that you can’t see?

What evidence are you looking for?

that’s not engagement.

It’s saying ‘well, is it REALLY happening though? We don’t know for sureeeeee’

Look, the problem here is that even the people in the ‘middle’ like yourself are questioning whether the situation on the ground is as bad as it’s made out to be.

What hope is there for the bombing to end while even people like yourself are doubting it?

 

 

[Davkaus]

Just now, Thug said:

But what is it that you’re unsure of?

What exactly is it that you can’t see?

What evidence are you looking for?

that’s not engagement.

 

So where's the evidence of hundreds of casualties at this hospital other than it being a claim from a Palestinian source last night?

Were there hundreds of people out there in that carpark?

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

I understand that there are multiple warnings, but it’s still indiscriminate bombing knowing that there are civilians within and it has been deemed they are within the acceptable casualties of war. 
 
I think debating the strategic importance of bombing military targets within a civilian population is reasonable but it is horrible nonetheless. 
 
 

The only truly indiscriminate ordnance being deliberately fired, are the many missiles that Hamas are launching with no guidance systems whatsoever. Unfortunately just how indiscriminate, was displayed at the hospital yesterday. You don’t see the Israelis making a human shield of their own people.

[Thug]

4 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

So where's the evidence of hundreds of casualties at this hospital other than it being a claim from a Palestinian source last night?

Were there hundreds of people out there in that carpark?

Oh, ok.

you win.

I don’t have any evidence.

The Palestinian are lying.

Carry on ‘bombing’ - which I also don’t have any evidence of, so maybe I should rephrase that:

carry on bombing if you are bombing in the first place at all.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Thug

[Awol]

14 minutes ago, Thug said:

Ok, now that you put it so eloquently, you’re right.

Israel would never do that.

Never.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/israelopt-10-things-you-need-to-know-about-annexation/

So you provide an example of threats by an old Israeli government to annex more (illegal) settlements on the West Bank? Unequivocally bad AND illegal, but it’s not Gaza, and it’s not murdering 2 million people who have literally nowhere else to go.

I thought you might actually be serious about the genocide stuff for a minute, happy to be wrong about that. 

[Thug]

9 minutes ago, Awol said:

So you provide an example of threats by an old Israeli government to annex more (illegal) settlements on the West Bank? Unequivocally bad AND illegal, but it’s not Gaza, and it’s not murdering 2 million people who have literally nowhere else to go.

I thought you might actually be serious about the genocide stuff for a minute, happy to be wrong about that. 

My point is they’ve done it before 

[Panto_Villan]

Although I think they have a right to defend themselves, I’m broadly anti-Israel because I see them as having deliberately sabotaged the peace process over the last two decades so they can settle more occupied land. Until that changes, the violence is going to continue.

But this thread really does make it obvious that for some people Israel will always be at fault, no matter the situation or what the evidence says.

[DJBOB]

23 minutes ago, meregreen said:

The only truly indiscriminate ordnance being deliberately fired, are the many missiles that Hamas are launching with no guidance systems whatsoever. Unfortunately just how indiscriminate, was displayed at the hospital yesterday. You don’t see the Israelis making a human shield of their own people.

I think it's irrefutable that Hamas have no intention of avoiding civilians.

But as with anything in this conflict, tit for tat isn't the power paradigm. 

Hamas' purposeful targeting of civilians doesn't make it right for the IDF to accept civilian casualties as part of the war.

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said:

Although I think they have a right to defend themselves, I’m broadly anti-Israel because I see them as having deliberately sabotaged the peace process over the last two decades so they can settle more occupied land. Until that changes, the violence is going to continue.

But this thread really does make it obvious that for some people Israel will always be at fault, no matter the situation or what the evidence says.

I wouldn't say I'm anti-Israel but I agree on the sentiment that especially the ruling parties of the last 20 years had little interest in an actual agreement with the Palestinians.

But I also think Israel is a great rallying cry absent of actually helping the Palestinians for other countries.

[meregreen]

4 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think it's irrefutable that Hamas have no intention of avoiding civilians.

But as with anything in this conflict, tit for tat isn't the power paradigm. 

Hamas' purposeful targeting of civilians doesn't make it right for the IDF to accept civilian casualties as part of the war.

There’s never been a war without civilian casualties. War is a terrible thing. 

[Thug]

1 minute ago, meregreen said:

There’s never been a war without civilian casualties. War is a terrible thing. 

And therefore the war should stop, no?

[Panto_Villan]

10 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I wouldn't say I'm anti-Israel but I agree on the sentiment that especially the ruling parties of the last 20 years had little interest in an actual agreement with the Palestinians.

But I also think Israel is a great rallying cry absent of actually helping the Palestinians for other countries.

It’s actually worse than not being interested in making a deal with the Palestinians, though - Netanyahu has deliberately been doing what he can to delegitimise the PA in favour of Hamas, because that way they can claim they’ve got no acceptable negotiating partner for peace while they continue to settle occupied land (the theory was Hamas would be content with control of Gaza).

I hope that after this conflict is done that a more moderate Israeli government takes power that is more willing to take on the settler lobby in Israeli politics. 

But yes, I agree with your point about the Arab governments. It’s quite telling how the neighbouring Arab states haven’t been willing to take in any refugees at all.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[DJBOB]

4 minutes ago, meregreen said:

There’s never been a war without civilian casualties. War is a terrible thing. 

While true - IDF are probably operating with a very loose profile of acceptable civilian casualties.

The calculation is how willing are the US and the West willing to stomach it and for how long? It is of Israel's interest to resolve the Gaza conflict as soon as possible. The longer it lasts, the more civilian casualties there are, and the less willing Israel's allies will be in "acceptable" civilian casualties.