Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Mandy Lifeboats]

If 96% of the deaths in this conflict have been Palestinian maybe it shows that the Palestinians need to change tactics because its doing more damage to itself than to Israel. 

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

If 96% of the deaths in this conflict have been Palestinian maybe it shows that the Palestinians need to change tactics because its doing more damage to itself than to Israel. 

I also think if you separate Gaza and the West Bank you'll find that a large majority of casualties are in Hamas controlled Gaza, rather than PLO\Fatah controlled West Bank.

[Rodders]

3 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

If 96% of the deaths in this conflict have been Palestinian maybe it shows that the Palestinians need to change tactics because its doing more damage to itself than to Israel. 

To an extent obviously, but do you think Hamas ( or similar terrorist groups on that side ) is the only reason Palestinians have ended up suffering or being victim of bomb attacks, losing their homes etc?

[StefanAVFC]

12 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

That's not what I said, I said that the analogy of claiming that a child dead on one side is worth more to some groupings

Seems that way on the side of Israel based on the reporting in the media IMHO

[Rustibrooks]

11 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Yes, but your claim is that 'thank god it wasn't true' based solely on someone quoting a state-operated Turkish news agency that apparently had it confirmed that it didn't happen, rather than a soldier on the ground visibly shaking, speaking bad English maybe not putting his words right.

You're jumping to conclusions about the fact that it didn't happen, and you chose to not listen to the first source on this. And I didn't say that I think you should take what the soldier says as truth, I said make of it as you will.

What I think is that the soldier has seen a lot of horrible things. He's saying that there's bodies, dismembered and bloody. That there's children and babies too. That isn't untrue if you look at the videos from the place.

I’m not claiming it to be true I’ve reposted something from a some what reputable news aggregator on Twitter. 
 

You are assuming I’m saying it didn’t happen, I never said that. I’m agreeing with the fact that people are going to run with the idea whether true or not about the headings. What I was saying to you is in the same way you said the Turkish news reported may not be reliable, I asked could you not say the same for i24 considering it will naturally report from the IDF side of things.

I am also not disputing whether they found children’s bodies or not, this conflict unfortunately is going to have children casualties and lots of innocent people. Which I really hate above all else

[StefanAVFC]

A bit of light relief, makes Schofield look like a saint

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by StefanAVFC

[Mandy Lifeboats]

2 minutes ago, Rodders said:

To an extent obviously, but do you think Hamas ( or similar terrorist groups on that side ) is the only reason Palestinians have ended up suffering or being victim of bomb attacks, losing their homes etc?

Of course not.  But it still shows that the strategy and tactics being used by Palestine are not working. 

They attacked peace festival and kidnapped foreign nationals.  That's not a desperate action of an oppressed people. That is barbarity and stupidity.  It has achieved nothing for Palestinians.  Its achieved more for Israel.  

It's reasonable to want to support the Palestinians now and in the future. It's also reasonable to want Hamas crushed.  

[Mandy Lifeboats]

And now we come to the award for the worst decisions of 2023.  Here to read the awards is Teresa May . 

The nominees are -

Hamas for attacking a peace festival attended by foreign nationals. 

SHA for sacking their manager whilst 6th in the table and bringing in Wayne Rooney. 

And the winner is...........

A group of desperate criminals who inhabit an area unfit for normal human habitation............SHA. 

 

[Rodders]

4 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Of course not.  But it still shows that the strategy and tactics being used by Palestine are not working. 

They attacked peace festival and kidnapped foreign nationals.  That's not a desperate action of an oppressed people. That is barbarity and stupidity.  It has achieved nothing for Palestinians.  Its achieved more for Israel.  

It's reasonable to want to support the Palestinians now and in the future. It's also reasonable to want Hamas crushed.  

Sure, I guess I just see a lot of all Palestinian = Hamas going about, or at least treated that way, which seems no different to all muslims are terrorists level of generalisation. 

I suppose it's a nightmare trying to articulate this point but

- the atrocities are atrocious, obviously. Without question, and with no intent to diminish.  But the language used by some in the media suggests a certain level of purity on behalf of the Israeli's, as if they are entirely innocent of committing such crimes themselves, or that everything done by the state of Israel has been entirely justified, which is clearly bollocks. In this particular instance, Hamas are 100% responsible for a retaliatory action that will include a huge amount of innocent civilians caught up in the collateral. 

But, the absence of any acknowledgement of the general hopelessness of the Palestinian cause, and indeed the effective social outlawing of such an opinion lest one have the AS label chucked at them, is enraging. Should discussing the nuance of the broader situation just be put on the back-burner for a couple of days, and wait until immediate emotions of disgust over the crimes subside a touch? I dunno maybe, but there's an element of "now's not the time, thoughts and prayers only" perpetual off-putting and shutting down of discussion about that idea. 

Again obviously the actions by Hamas are so counter-productive and revolting, they can't possibly be viewed in anyway as helpful. But there's a willful ignorance of what will happen in a population that everyone, inside and outside the arena knows have no chance of an actual future, of their own homeland. Those conditions are absolutely fertile breeding grounds for resentments to turn into violence, and it doesn't take much manipulation from Iran and others to exploit that sentiment. Why not hold those conditions under the microscope and, say for **** sake this is only going to keep happening? let's change the record.'  And that it does require Israel to not steal land etc. There does not appear to be an actual path out of that world for ordinary palestinians. Is it just a case of "mustn't grumble, let's just wait until our collective genocide has been more socially acceptably completed: over generations slow enough that people won't really notice'.  

 

 

 

 

[Chindie]

Occupied people can resist.

Unfortunately regardless of what the Palestinians do they have been treated like shit. The numbers of Palestinians that 'just get killed' day to day by Israel is obscene - even before the attack by Hamas the death toll was a couple of hundred this year. Palestinians have their land and property taken, they have access to water denied, and they might just get randomly killed at a checkpoint (my dissertation has a whole section on this, people randomly murdered at checkpoints). Peaceful resistance gets them killed - a recent campaign of return where Palestinians tried to go back to their lands, unarmed, saw thousands shot. Not resisting at all suggests acceptance of their awful situation, which does not get better, there is some moral support occasionally but nothing is actually achieved in making Palestine a better place. It is not a shock they turn to madmen. And then we get this tragedy which helps no-one.

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, Rodders said:

Sure, I guess I just see a lot of all Palestinian = Hamas going about, or at least treated that way, which seems no different to all muslims are terrorists level of generalisation. 

I suppose it's a nightmare trying to articulate this point but

- the atrocities are atrocious, obviously. Without question, and with no intent to diminish.  But the language used by some in the media suggests a certain level of purity on behalf of the Israeli's, as if they are entirely innocent of committing such crimes themselves, or that everything done by the state of Israel has been entirely justified, which is clearly bollocks. In this particular instance, Hamas are 100% responsible for a retaliatory action that will include a huge amount of innocent civilians caught up in the collateral. 

But, the absence of any acknowledgement of the general hopelessness of the Palestinian cause, and indeed the effective social outlawing of such an opinion lest one have the AS label chucked at them, is enraging. Should discussing the nuance of the broader situation just be put on the back-burner for a couple of days, and wait until immediate emotions of disgust over the crimes subside a touch? I dunno maybe, but there's an element of "now's not the time, thoughts and prayers only" perpetual off-putting and shutting down of discussion about that idea. 

Again obviously the actions by Hamas are so counter-productive and revolting, they can't possibly be viewed in anyway as helpful. But there's a willful ignorance of what will happen in a population that everyone, inside and outside the arena knows have no chance of an actual future, of their own homeland. Those conditions are absolutely fertile breeding grounds for resentments to turn into violence, and it doesn't take much manipulation from Iran and others to exploit that sentiment. Why not hold those conditions under the microscope and, say for **** sake this is only going to keep happening? let's change the record.'  And that it does require Israel to not steal land etc. There does not appear to be an actual path out of that world for ordinary palestinians. Is it just a case of "mustn't grumble, let's just wait until our collective genocide has been more socially acceptably completed: over generations slow enough that people won't really notice'.  

 

 

 

 

If anything Palestinians are on the greater scale of things against violence, as PLO\Fatah have about 3 million votes against Hamas minor majority back in 2005 before they outlawed elections in Gaza, within the Palestinian population.

It's good to see both Israel and Palestine now starting to ramp up criticism of their two extremely viscous leaderships in Gaza and Israel.

Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl

[delboy54]

Just been reading The Hamas Covenant or Hamas Charter, formally known in English as the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement....

It makes depressing reading to be honest 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

@Rodders

I think you articulate the point very well. 

At one point Hitler had the almost unanimous support of the German people.  But towards the end sections of his own army were trying to kill him.  He became ineffective.  He caused huge amout to of damage to the world but also to Germany and the German people. He had to go.  

I am not going to li,en Hamas to the Nazis.  But the one thing they have in common is that they failed but carried on with the same tactics to the bitter end. Hamas has reached the stage where they are hiding in a bunker under the Reichstag telling others to fight to the bitter end. 

I would hope that Palestine shares some things with 1945 Germany.  I hope they see that an armed struggle is pointless and then rebuild.  

 

 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

23 minutes ago, delboy54 said:

Just been reading The Hamas Covenant or Hamas Charter, formally known in English as the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement....

It makes depressing reading to be honest 

 Thanks for pointing it out.  

Wow!  

I particularly like the part that says the a woman does not need her husband's permission to fight the invaders.  Nor does a slave need their master's position.  

Quote

woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Mandy Lifeboats
Added details

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

 Thanks for pointing it out.  

Wow!  

I particularly like the part that says the a woman does not need her husband's permission to fight the invaders.  Nor does a slave need their master's position.  

 

Yeah, it's essentially ISIS style Shariah laws, Iran would be proud. It also underlines why Egypt and Lebanon support them from afar, but won't touch any refugees from Gaza.

Hamas have increased suffering on an already suffering population.

[chrisp65]

 

 

[villa4europe]

37 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Occupied people can resist.

Unfortunately regardless of what the Palestinians do they have been treated like shit. The numbers of Palestinians that 'just get killed' day to day by Israel is obscene - even before the attack by Hamas the death toll was a couple of hundred this year. Palestinians have their land and property taken, they have access to water denied, and they might just get randomly killed at a checkpoint (my dissertation has a whole section on this, people randomly murdered at checkpoints). Peaceful resistance gets them killed - a recent campaign of return where Palestinians tried to go back to their lands, unarmed, saw thousands shot. Not resisting at all suggests acceptance of their awful situation, which does not get better, there is some moral support occasionally but nothing is actually achieved in making Palestine a better place. It is not a shock they turn to madmen. And then we get this tragedy which helps no-one.

At least the bbc reported that

Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israel this year, bearing in mind we're in early October, are the highest since they started recording it as a stat

The wire are reporting it as since 2008 6407 Palestinians vs 308 Israelis

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

That's not what I said, I said that the analogy of claiming that a child dead on one side is worth more to some groupings, in this case the blinkered Stop the War Campaign, is a stupid way of saying things.

Mate you called me racist, a tankie, and attempted to smear me as sympathetic to hamas supporters. You’re looking for a fight in all the wrong places. 

[Chindie]

There isn't a level playing field. The presenter doesn't care about her and her people's suffering. He just wants her voice to justify the Israeli reaction.

[magnkarl]

37 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Mate you called me racist, a tankie, and attempted to smear me as sympathetic to hamas supporters. You’re looking for a fight in all the wrong places. 

You did suggest that Britain should have relocated the Jews somewhere else, mate. If you don't realise how that looks or sounds you should read a bit about the founding principles of pogroms.

If you swap the word Jew in your post out with any other ethnic group, you might understand how dumb it is. Let's just say you would be removed from even our most racist party, the conservatives, for uttering such a shambolic thing. If you don't like being confronted with what you've written, I'd suggest sound testing it with someone who's sensitive to this sort of thing before blurting it out.

Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl