Steve Bruce

[Vive_La_Villa]

46 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Yes, we would only have to play one of them.

You don't know that.

[Grasshopper]

 

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

Steve Bruce did this at Blues IIRC bowed to fan pressure, started playing more attacking and lost the resilience and went backwards.....Its not as simple as some think.  

As usual, in your efforts to explain „your position“ of blaming the players & not the manager, you have unwittingly stumbled upon the solution.

If Bruce bowed to fan pressure (meaning GH, Vretti, Stagman, TT, Trent and a few others - who are clearly mental and completely wrong) the onsueing result would be either

1 - we lose and hastens the sacking of Bruce 

2 - We‘d win our way to 2nd/6th and nay have a chance of winning the playoff

Fine by me

in fact Bruce-tastic

@TRO you‘re a F******* genius

Tro for president

[Grasshopper]

7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

You don't know that.

Have a bet with him too then 

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

Maybe it's negativity then and not resilience. If it was true resilience things shouldn't go backwards when you try and go forwards. 

The danger here is , is having forwards who can score and defend from the front too......at this level , they usually do one or the other not both.....Hence the problem.

In the ideal world defenders, defend and have the ability to launch/Start attacks, that what good defenders do.....as forwards do the reverse.

Our players simply do not have enough attributes to do all those things, in short they are limited and lose form more easily than those of better quality.

I am not excusing the manager or coaches, because its a joint effort.....but I still believe you are only as good as your players.

In my humble opinion.....We do not possess the strength of "forward" to carry this promotion campaign to any serious threat with Kodjia out.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by TRO

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

It's not so much "should have been" targetting automatic promotion, more that this was in fact the target, and 2ppg was seen as a rough and ready measure of whether we were on course for that.  If we achieved an average of 2ppg and didn't get promoted, Bruce would not have met the target set by Xia.  Some people have seemed uncertain about whether automatic promotion was the target, for example asking for links to demonstrate it.  Perhaps the last couple of pages indicate that people do accept that this is the case and that it doesn't need to be further substantiated.

If we get promoted via the playoffs, then everyone will be enormously relieved and grateful about getting out of this division.  I doubt that anyone struggles to find promotion very welcome, not just acceptable, however achieved.

But if we get up via the playoffs after an unconvincing season (and this has been an unconvincing season, so far), then I would be very surprised if Xia were to think that everything was just fine and dandy, and that he should stick with the manager as the way forward for the club.  There are questions there in any event even if we somehow made second spot about whether the playing style is what the club wants to see, about whether we are building a strong squad to move forward and so on, but they probably are seen as more pressing questions if we don't get an automatic promotion spot.  Those questions are what are on people's minds, and they don't just go away if we get promoted.

I don't disagree with any of this. And none of it lines up with what Grashopper was claiming was happening.

1 hour ago, Grasshopper said:

spot on

Then you should have said that.

[Grasshopper]

 

1 minute ago, TRO said:

In my humble opinion.....We do not possess the strength of "forward" to carry this promotion campaign to any serious threat with Kodjia out.

I disagree completely.

if we were set up with

SJ

Bree/RDL/Elmo Chester Terry Taylor

That defence should be able to keep a clean sheet

Snod Lansbury/Onomah Grealish/O‘Hare Hourihane Adomah

Hogan/Davis/Gaby/Kodjia

those MF/CF front 6 could press the F*** out of EVERY team in the CH and half the PL teams Burnley and downwards in the table.

 

 

[Grasshopper]

 

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Then you should have said that.

I indeed said that 

In fact you quoted me 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Grasshopper

[vreitti]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

Our players simply do not have enough attributes to do all those things, in short they are limited and lose form more easily than those of better quality.

What are you saying? Are you suggesting our squad is limited in comparison to others in this league? 

[TRO]

39 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

 

As usual, in your efforts to explain „your position“ of blaming the players & not the manager, you have unwittingly stumbled upon the solution.

If Bruce bowed to fan pressure (meaning GH, Vretti, Stagman, TT, Trent and a few others - who are clearly mental and completely wrong) the onsueing result would be either

1 - we lose and hastens the sacking of Bruce 

2 - We‘d win our way to 2nd/6th and nay have a chance of winning the playoff

Fine by me

in fact Bruce-tastic

@TRO you‘re a F******* genius

Tro for president

GH you never cease to amaze me.

If you read my posts carefully and I mean carefully.....I don't blame anyone other than the perpetrator.

I fully understand the role of the manager and I fully understand the way the industry works.....Shite football, sack the manager......totally par for the course, who am I to challenge that.

However, It does not always work either, sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't.......After the last 10 years, I do not want to play Russian Roulette with my football club.....not again.

I am no more happy than you.....but i am looking for evolution, where I think, only think you are looking for revolution.

I am sorry mate.....I see things on the park ( Like the back pass Saturday) I find hard to blame the manager as directly as you seem to want to do.

This shining Knight on a white horse, may exist in your dreams, but I have seen many of those over the years just evaporate in to the night.

We played Derby the week end and by all accounts accquited ourselves well, besides the match losing errors, that were committed by players, not managers....

We did not have forwards available and fit like.....Andreas Weimann, David Nugent or Matej Vydra.....In fact Matej has more thought and movement up front than we can only dream of.....He has that rare quality in our ranks awareness......We started the campaign with 5 forwards in the squad, they started with 8......its called preparation.

as for your campaign team, no I don't think they are mental or anything like it, They have their opinions, which are interesting to read, but don't be foolish enough to claim a dovetailed opinion to them because, despite their perceived allegiance to you their opinions have subtle differences too.

Look a few key players back, a good Jan signing or two and the whole landscape changes.....don't be too quick with the humour of the moment......football has a habit of leaving egg on your face.

UTV

Ps just for you and only you GH......Steve Bruce for President

Edited December 18, 2017 by TRO

[Stevo985]

17 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

 

I indeed said that 

In fact you quoted me 

No you didn’t. There’s a distinct difference between what Peterms articulately said and I totally agree with, and the straw man you invented. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, peterms said:

It's not so much "should have been" targetting automatic promotion, more that this was in fact the target, and 2ppg was seen as a rough and ready measure of whether we were on course for that.  If we achieved an average of 2ppg and didn't get promoted, Bruce would not have met the target set by Xia.  Some people have seemed uncertain about whether automatic promotion was the target, for example asking for links to demonstrate it.  Perhaps the last couple of pages indicate that people do accept that this is the case and that it doesn't need to be further substantiated.

If we get promoted via the playoffs, then everyone will be enormously relieved and grateful about getting out of this division.  I doubt that anyone struggles to find promotion very welcome, not just acceptable, however achieved.

But if we get up via the playoffs after an unconvincing season (and this has been an unconvincing season, so far), then I would be very surprised if Xia were to think that everything was just fine and dandy, and that he should stick with the manager as the way forward for the club.  There are questions there in any event even if we somehow made second spot about whether the playing style is what the club wants to see, about whether we are building a strong squad to move forward and so on, but they probably are seen as more pressing questions if we don't get an automatic promotion spot.  Those questions are what are on people's minds, and they don't just go away if we get promoted.

Good shout.

[flashingqwerty]

45 minutes ago, TRO said:

The danger here is , is having forwards who can score and defend from the front too......at this level , they usually do one or the other not both.....Hence the problem.

In the ideal world defenders, defend and have the ability to launch/Start attacks, that what good defenders do.....as forwards do the reverse.

Our players simply do not have enough attributes to do all those things, in short they are limited and lose form more easily than those of better quality.

I am not excusing the manager or coaches, because its a joint effort.....but I still believe you are only as good as your players.

In my humble opinion.....We do not possess the strength of "forward" to carry this promotion campaign to any serious threat with Kodjia out.

 

 

Tro, there are sides in this league getting similar results to us playing a far superior brand of football with players widely regarded by experienced pros to be of a far lower quality than ours.

So whilst i agree with you to a degree, i think a different manger could get far more out of the players we have than Bruce is getting.

[srsmithusa]

32 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think this is very debatable.

I understand the argument, about not attacking enough....and I have great empathy for for it.....However, we need to be careful what we wish for.

Steve Bruce did this at Blues IIRC bowed to fan pressure, started playing more attacking and lost the resilience and went backwards.....Its not as simple as some think.

We could have another manager come in and do the same.

I agree it's debatable.  Prognostications are always debatable.  I clearly said IMO, which stands for infallibly more on-target.   

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, vreitti said:

What are you saying? Are you suggesting our squad is limited in comparison to others in this league? 

Not necessarily in Comparison, but in some cases yes.....I meant limited in comparison to the prem' ( talking general of course)

I think other teams have better players than us in certain positions, Yes.

I think we have better players in certain positions too.....problem is most of our are out injured.

just as one single example, amongst many

If I see a game, where we struggle ( other than the 2 centre backs) to get our head to win an aerial ball, which is quite common( midfield and up front in the main).......I feel entitled to say we have limited players.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said:

Tro, there are sides in this league getting similar results to us playing a far superior brand of football with players widely regarded by experienced pros to be of a far lower quality than ours.

So whilst i agree with you to a degree, i think a different manger could get far more out of the players we have than Bruce is getting.

And while I am not in a position to disagree, because I can only speculate and we have all done enough of that, unless we are at BMH every day, we can only voice our opinion.

However, just remember ( and its not a counter argument, but) Steve Bruce is highly though off in amongst his peers, so They may have an opinion on why that is too.

sounds like there is valid arguments on both sides....But.

If they were all right.

We would be sitting at the top now.

ps Don't forget Middlesbrough was the favourites.....shows what opinions count for.

Edited December 18, 2017 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

I think TRO does have a point. It's easy to blame the manager but the players do need to be also doing more. If they are not capable of doing more then maybe they are not as good as we thought they were. 

Maybe they are not as good as Bruce thought they were. Maybe Bruce is not a good a manager as Xia thought he was. 

Maybe everyone is just shit! 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think TRO does have a point. It's easy to blame the manager but the players do need to be also doing more. If they are not capable of doing more then maybe they are not as good as we thought they were. 

Maybe they are not as good as Bruce thought they were. Maybe Bruce is not a good a manager as Xia thought he was. 

Maybe everyone is just shit! 

I think we ALL spend too much time searching for blame, because we think we know the answers, when.........MAYBE we don't.

Perhaps we should all spend more time in saying whats wrong , by analysing/debating  the game and avoiding who's to blame.....because it ends up as a distraction.

If we are going to be foolish enough to just blame the man at the top, for ease......Then its Dr Tones fault.

But I think we are more articulate than that.

[villianusa]

The games I have watched this season that we have played well in, we have played a high pressing game. This has to be done as a team and  not as individuals. I have seen too many games where a Villa player will press and player, but the player will just lay it off to one of his team mates without a Villa player anywhere near him. The same will happen again, a Villa player will press the new player with a ball and everyone backs off the rest of the players and we give up too much space. 

Due to the above tactics the opposition have too much time on the ball and they become comfortable an can ease into the game. When we do win possession playing like that, our players are too far apart and we don't link up very well, and don't hang onto the ball on enough to mount an attack.

For instance, if Davis presses the center defender with the ball, the two wide players (Albert and Snodgress), need to press closer to the two fullbacks, with Omonah, pushing a little bit closer to Davis on the side the open center half is. Hourihane and Whelan push up behind Omonah, covering the side the ball is likely to go, with the back four doing similar behind the center mids.

Even though, I have supported Bruce and still do on most things, I see this falling at his feet and the tactics it looks like we play in certain games. In those positions, players have to do there part and as we see they make mistake that cost us dearly also.

The times wehave set out at a higher press, we have created a lot more chances, but sadly we missed way too many, or players have been selfish in front of goal. The manager and the players have both mistakes this season, and they will continue to do so, but  have to work harder as an unit off the ball, to give us more chances as an unit with the ball.

[Vive_La_Villa]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think we ALL spend too much time searching for blame, because we think we know the answers, when.........MAYBE we don't.

Perhaps we should all spend more time in saying whats wrong , by analysing/debating  the game and avoiding who's to blame.....because it ends up as a distraction.

If we are going to be foolish enough to just blame the man at the top, for ease......Then its Dr Tones fault.

But I think we are more articulate than that.

I agree. I've said many times I'm not a fan of Bruce but when I see post after post about what a bad manager he is and how literally ANYBODY could do a better job I feel the urge to defend him. 

He is not doing a good enough job but to suggest all our problems lie with one man and changing that man will mean promotion is absurd! 

[srsmithusa]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think we ALL spend too much time searching for blame, because we think we know the answers, when.........MAYBE we don't.

Perhaps we should all spend more time in saying whats wrong , by analysing/debating  the game and avoiding who's to blame.....because it ends up as a distraction.

If we are going to be foolish enough to just blame the man at the top, for ease......Then its Dr Tones fault.

But I think we are more articulate than that.

On the other hand, when things are wrong, we can spread the blame broadly enough that nobody is ever accountable.  In the match thread, I wrote - in so many words.

"Did Bruce tell Whelan to make a blind pass back to an wide open unmarked forward, leaving Johnstone with virtually no chance?  OF COURSE NOT!  

Did Bruce sign Whelan?  Did he start Whelan?  Will he start Whelan next game?   Will he tell Whelan to stop making blind passes back to the keeper?  Will Bruce bench Whelan when he does?  Did Bruce tell Whelan to stop making blind passes back to the keeper last time he did it? (This isn’t the first) if so will he bench Whelan now?  He didn't bench him last time.

So, did Bruce tell Whelan to pass directly to an unmarked attacker? Of course not.  Does Bruce still bear some responsibility for it. Of course he does!

But since he isn't ENTIRELY at fault we should ignore it?   If so, then we should not really blame Whelan either, for the same reason.  Why didn't Chester yell out "Don't pass back!"?   The fact, is that no mistakes ever happen in a vacuum of nothing else going wrong. This everybody is to blame so nobody is to blame is managerial nonsense.  Apologies to those that liked the original post.  

Both should be held accountable.  That's been one of biggest complaints ever since Bruce arrived.  NOBODY at villa is held accountable any more.  We have to accept crap because the Lerner years trained us all to think that's what Villa is.  

Does anyone think the team played according to plan this past weekend?  Who will be disciplined?  Sanctioned?  Benched?  called out?   Nobody! because nobody is ever held accountable at villa any more.  We just remain crap and learn to be happy with it.  it's the best we can do after Lerner, or a poor roster, or RDM, or injuries, or new players, or poorly integrated style of forward, or something.  There's always something else we can spread blame out to, and so we just do nothing about it.  REALLY bad way to run a business.

(We've been down this path before, so I expect the "you don't know what Bruce said to Whelan after the game of this week at BMH"  True, but I know that this is not the first time Whelan has done a horrible, blind back-pass, and WHATEVER Bruce did quietly (if anything - there's no proof he did, just an understanding that he might have) it didn't work.  This is not the first time a Bruce side for villa has failed to match the game plan.  Whatever he did quietly (if anything - there's no proof he did) it didn't work, because it happened again this weekend.  But that's OK, we can spread the blame broadly enough that nobody is ever held accountable.  Why, we can even blame the hysterical or inarticulate fans.)