Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 I have no personal gripe with anyone on VT. A counter arguement can appear aggressive, inpolite or just rude depending on the voice in the readers head. I want to simply air my opinion here, and welcome discussion. I dont want to battle out a must win because poster a knows more than poster b or is a better fan. I want promotion out of Ch -> PL nothing less 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: I think he has had his chance. You've kept very quiet about that . It's fair enough, each to their own. I think a manager, unless he's making a total dogs dinner of things (like Bradley at Swansea etc.) deserves at the very least a full season, including pre-season and summer window before being given a million quid+ and told to do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: I think he has had his chance. If you think he won't get us promoted next season then fine. That's your opinion and you're fully entitled to it. But Steve Bruce's results this season do not bear that out over the course of a full season, and that includes our bad run. So it becomes an opinion based on nothing. So some might say your theory is without substance. The fact that you then try to shoot down people who are trying to apply some kind of objectivity to it is what I find most curious. It's like you take it as a personal slight that we disagree with you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lerner's Driver said: Hey, do you remember a while back when we were in the bad run and you first clogged up the board with your incessant repetition and then you held off a bit cos you got the message that reading your posts had probably become hard work? You're entering that territory again. Actually The Derby game was the last game before the end of my holiday. I returned to full time work on the monday for the first time since July last year. So forgive me for spending my down time on VT. But Hey, I even posted a few weeks into " The Holy Run" that I was behind him in a final push for 6th Alas, he failed. So I'm back on the warpath I apologies if you find me changing my mind over time disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, BOF said: If you think he won't get us promoted next season then fine. That's your opinion and you're fully entitled to it. yes Quote But Steve Bruce's results this season do not bear that out over the course of a full season, and that includes our bad run. I'm going along with the premise of him being appointed with enough time and support from the board to get us to the playoffs. it hasnt happened. It has been stated here by many that that though was apparent to them too, and the club have moved the goalposts or 2nd chanced him. Quote So it becomes an opinion based on nothing. that cannot possibly be right Quote So some might say your theory is without substance. The fact that you then try to shoot down people who are trying to apply some kind of objectivity to it is what I find most curious. It's like you take it as a personal slight that we disagree with you. You may well be right seen in a reactional sense. But one is not gonna flip sides just because someone else produces a reasoning that one cant believe in. You <-> We says a lot Edited April 11, 2017 by Grasshopper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: I'm going along with the premise of him being appointed with enough time and support from the board to get us to the playoffs. it hasnt happened. Was this the club's objective for him when he came in though? I haven't seen anything from the club to suggest it was. I may have missed it though so correct me if I'm wrong. With the greatest of respect, SB is employed by the club, and his job is to meet or exceed the club's expectations, not yours or mine. If, when he sat down with Xia when he first came in, they agreed that realistically promotion this season was an outside shot given we were in the relegation zone, and that the target is to hit a top half finish with a squad that only needs minimal investment over the summer to mount a serious challenge from the off next season, then for my money he looks on track at the moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, Godders said: Was this the club's objective for him when he came in though? I haven't seen anything from the club to suggest it was. I may have missed it though so correct me if I'm wrong. With the greatest of respect, SB is employed by the club, and his job is to meet or exceed the club's expectations, not yours or mine. If, when he sat down with Xia when he first came in, they agreed that realistically promotion this season was an outside shot given we were in the relegation zone, and that the target is to hit a top half finish with a squad that only needs minimal investment over the summer to mount a serious challenge from the off next season, then for my money he looks on track at the moment. Unless anyone is privy we'll never really know. I do think that sacking someone after 10 or so games means that being in a relegation fight was a no no for the board. I do believe that DrT set out a directive to get promoted this season. So if he felt it was no longer possible, he could have stuck with RDM and "the target is to hit a top half finish" could have been the new directive. I believe DrT wanted immediate promotion at the time of both appointments. He sacked RDM He re-viewed the situation after it was clear promotion was no longer possible durjng Bruces reign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 55 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: You <-> We says a lot No it doesn't say a lot. It just means we're currently taking opposite sides in a discussion, that's all. Or do you disagree with that too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: Unless anyone is privy we'll never really know. I do think that sacking someone after 10 or so games means that being in a relegation fight was a no no for the board. I do believe that DrT set out a directive to get promoted this season Without going back and searching the interwebs, I'm certain that either Dr. Tony or Keith Wyness said (right up top) they felt getting promotion was essential (or similar word) in 2 years. They (everyone) would have wanted and liked it to be this year, obviously, but from the start there has been an acceptance that it could well take 2 seasons. So I think your view that "DrT set out a directive to get promoted this season" is not quite accurate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Without going back and searching the interwebs, I'm certain that either Dr. Tony or Keith Wyness said (right up top) they felt getting promotion was essential (or similar word) in 2 years. They (everyone) would have wanted and liked it to be this year, obviously, but from the start there has been an acceptance that it could well take 2 seasons. So I think your view that "DrT set out a directive to get promoted this season" is not quite accurate. I remember a plan to be top 3 in the world....... media-speak is one thing as I said, they could have kept RDM on to achieve promotion in 2 years then. But they didnt. So much has been said about 4 promotions that I'm not really sure anyone has decifered the difference between hype or from what is said behind closed doors. I'll go with AVFC -> promotion asap - this season -> change manager to get promotion asap - this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: Unless anyone is privy we'll never really know. I do think that sacking someone after 10 or so games means that being in a relegation fight was a no no for the board. I do believe that DrT set out a directive to get promoted this season. So if he felt it was no longer possible, he could have stuck with RDM and "the target is to hit a top half finish" could have been the new directive. I believe DrT wanted immediate promotion at the time of both appointments. He sacked RDM He re-viewed the situation after it was clear promotion was no longer possible durjng Bruces reign To me, it makes sense that promotion was the objective at the start of the season. RDM got us into a position where it was very unlikely promotion was going to happen, so Xia sacked him and bought in SB. Now, SB is starting at a disadvantage to RDM as we're already some way off the promotion pace. A pragmatic approach for Xia would be to agree that, given where the club is in the league, promotion is not a key objective for SB this season. Reading it that way would mean that he didn't move the goalposts part way into SB's tenure in order to not sack him (which, had he done so, would be a reflection of a very poor people manager imo), because promotion was never a key objective for him in the first place. Do you not think that reading of things better fits what we've seen, rather than Xia deciding to lower the bar just so he doesn't have to sack Steve? Edited April 11, 2017 by Godders Clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, BOF said: we're currently taking opposite sides in a discussion, that's all. Or do you disagree with that too. we are on oposite sides of a discussion I was highlighting a "you we" that appeared to me that it was taken as a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Grasshopper said: they could have kept RDM on to achieve promotion in 2 years then. But they didnt He was leading us out of the division in the other direction. But anyway, they sacked him, which suggests intolerance of "failure to meet expectations" on their part. That they haven't sacked Bruce suggests that they don't think he's failed to meet their expectations, which in turn suggests that they are obviously giving him more time, which means next season. Ergo, plan to get up next year. Which unsurprisingly is exactly what Bruce has also said is the plan, (some while ago on Football focus on the telly, talking to Dion) - That he'd like to go up this year, but knows he has to go up next year or he'll be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Godders said: To me, it makes sense that promotion was the objective at the start of the season. RDM got us into a position where it was very unlikely promotion was going to happen, so Xia sacked him and bought in SB. Now, SB is starting at a disadvantage to RDM as we're already some way off the promotion pace. A pragmatic approach for Xia would be to agree that, given where the club is in the league, promotion is not a key objective for SB this season. Reading it that way would mean that he didn't move the goalposts part way into SB's tenure in order to not sack him (which is a reflection of a very poor people manager imo), because promotion was never a key objective for him in the first place. Do you not think that reading of things better fits what we've seen, rather than Xia deciding to lower the bar just so he doesn't have to sack Steve? Very sensibly worded and I can see your point and would agree that as a possibility. But I believe just as much as you do your angle that it could by seen from my angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, blandy said: He was leading us out of the division in the other direction. my opinion too 4 minutes ago, blandy said: But anyway, they sacked him, which suggests intolerance of "failure to meet expectations" on their part. agree 4 minutes ago, blandy said: That they haven't sacked Bruce suggests that they don't think he's failed to meet their expectations, which in turn suggests that they are obviously giving him more time, which means next season. Ergo, plan to get up next year. Which unsurprisingly is exactly what Bruce has also said is the plan, (some while ago on Football focus on the telly, talking to Dion) - That he'd like to go up this year, but knows he has to go up next year or he'll be sacked. I honestly didnt see that interview and have not notice reference on here. That last sentence leads me to believe that sometime next season he will be sacked. My grievance is being in Ch (thanx Randy for that) and staying down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DCJonah Posted April 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 11, 2017 I'm conflicted with him. His results and our form recently show he deserves the chance next season, but the way we play makes me think he won't get us promoted and we're wasting our time with him. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I'm conflicted with him. His results and our form recently show he deserves the chance next season, but the way we play makes me think he won't get us promoted and we're wasting our time with him. I suppose I've just spend one afternoon of my life discussing finer points when I could have summed it all by saying this ^^^^ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I'm conflicted with him. His results and our form recently show he deserves the chance next season, but the way we play makes me think he won't get us promoted and we're wasting our time with him. I honestly think that the way we currently play was necessary for this season in isolation. It was horses for courses particularly given what he took over. Especially once we started on the winning streak and while playoffs remained a distant chance, it was a case of just keep picking up the points. I think he has already stated that ball retention is the next stage in our development as a team. We're now able to defend. We can grind out wins. The goals are starting to come more regularly. Next up is linking everything together. It goes back to the whole work in progress thing, and while Bruce's sides have never been known for their beautiful football, he's not quite in the Allardyce, Pulis category either. His Hull side went up with majority possession football, for example. Basically I don't think 30-35% possession will be our norm next season just because we've seen it this season. He will continue to improve the playing staff. The squad will continue to gel, and I personally fully expect us to batter this division next season withh him in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I'm conflicted with him. His results and our form recently show he deserves the chance next season, but the way we play makes me think he won't get us promoted and we're wasting our time with him. This is a concern I have too. For me the rest of the season is an opportunity to set out our stall for next season. If we continue to win games with the same style of play, then I think that could be a problem next season. If however we try to have more attacking intent, I don't mean Bruce turning into Pepe, just trying to score more than one goal per game, then I'd feel more confident of promotion. If we continue with the same style and fail to win many games, especially a week on Sunday, then I feel the board may feel they need to review the situation. I'm 80/90% sure Steve Bruce will still be manager come August. However we have plenty of football people at the club now and although they seem to be putting a lot of value on stability, which is a strong argument, particularly after the turmoil of the last few seasons, I doubt this will be a blind mantra and alternative solutions will be investigated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 11, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 11, 2017 42 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: I honestly didnt see that interview and have not notice reference on here. Quote Speaking on the BBC's Football Focus programme, he said: "We're the fifth most successful club in this country. "I've waited 20 years for an opportunity like this. It is a genuine big club I've got to try and get this club up. "I'm under no illusions and if I don't it's 'off with my head', it's as simple as that, 'off with my big fat head'. Bruce is convinced he can get it right if the claret and blue faithful give him time. "It's had an awful couple of years so we've got to try and get it back," said Bruce. "I think they realise how the club's had a tough time and I think there are shoots of recovery, so all you say to them is 'look, give me time and I'll get it right'. "Promotion next year? For a club like ours, that's got to be the aim." Googled it got the above from the Evening Mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts