England v Portugal

[Stevo985]

Vardy is quality if used correctly.

Tonight he wasn't.

A long suffering problem of England. I suppose it is for all International teams but we notice it more with our own. Play the "best" players. But if they're not used in the same way as they are when they produce the form to make them the best, it doesn't work.

Vardy and Kane should work. It will work, imo. But can't help but feel that Rooney throws a spanner in the works.

That's not a dig at Rooney. It's just that with him up front the other two have to play wide. And even with Rooney in midfield, the type of player he is means he gets forward and those two are forced wider than they should be.

[Zatman]

Yeah I wouldnt disagree, think for England that Kane and Sturridge from the start would do more damage and being Vardy from bench about 60-65 minutes to stretch the defence. last few tournament winners had players like Schurrle and Pedro doing that especially when legs get tired

[kurtsimonw]

5 hours ago, Zatman said:

Yeah I wouldnt disagree, think for England that Kane and Sturridge from the start would do more damage and being Vardy from bench about 60-65 minutes to stretch the defence. last few tournament winners had players like Schurrle and Pedro doing that especially when legs get tired

I'd rather have Sturridge as the one coming on. I think he's technically better than Vardy, but he's less reliable and would be more efficient as an impact player.

[PaulC]

Rooney is the problem really. The diamond we played last night was more a 4-3-3 with him in the middle and Kane and Vardy out wide. Thats not playing Kane and Vardy to their strengths. Ali was also playing in a  wide midfield role. Hodgson is going to screw this up,, all to accomodate Rooney. Also seems that the Spurs players are just playing to each their. Dier and Ali were looking for Kane rather than Vardy. We should know our strogest side by now, instead we are still pondering selections and formations. The only plus from last night was Kyle Walker who looks to have nailed that right back spot. 

[VillaChris]

22 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Rooney is the problem really. The diamond we played last night was more a 4-3-3 with him in the middle and Kane and Vardy out wide. Thats not playing Kane and Vardy to their strengths. Ali was also playing in a  wide midfield role. Hodgson is going to screw this up,, all to accomodate Rooney. Also seems that the Spurs players are just playing to each their. Dier and Ali were looking for Kane rather than Vardy. We should know our strogest side by now, instead we are still pondering selections and formations. The only plus from last night was Kyle Walker who looks to have nailed that right back spot. 

Still have my doubts about Walker against any intelligent wide player but yeah in this formation the Spurs FBs really do have to start as Clyne and Bertrand are more conservative full backs. 

[kurtsimonw]

Walker seems to have become a more intelligent full back though. When you combine that with the fact he's going to be quicker and stronger than anyone he comes up against, I don't think many wide men will enjoy having to come up against him.

[TheAuthority]

12 hours ago, PaulC said:

Rooney is the problem really. The diamond we played last night was more a 4-3-3 with him in the middle and Kane and Vardy out wide. Thats not playing Kane and Vardy to their strengths. Ali was also playing in a  wide midfield role. Hodgson is going to screw this up,, all to accomodate Rooney. Also seems that the Spurs players are just playing to each their. Dier and Ali were looking for Kane rather than Vardy. We should know our strogest side by now, instead we are still pondering selections and formations. The only plus from last night was Kyle Walker who looks to have nailed that right back spot. 

I agree with all this Paul.  A lot of people are worried about the defense but that is a problem no-one can solve because we have the personnel we have. (Although Shawcross is worth a shout.)
However we are blessed with all this attacking talent and it will be a travesty if Woy can't work out how to use it effectively.

To be honest I've never really understood why he got the job. Sure he took Fulham to a Europa final (and lost), failed at Liverpool and stabilized the Baggies in mid-table. Those aren't really stand out credentials for an international manager. Sure he looks and sounds (i.e. his accent) like the right man for the job but I think he's more likely to lose it for us than win it.

[PaulC]

When was the last time we had a good manager. Venables? 

[villa4europe]

I agree with all this Paul.  A lot of people are worried about the defense but that is a problem no-one can solve because we have the personnel we have. (Although Shawcross is worth a shout.)

However we are blessed with all this attacking talent and it will be a travesty if Woy can't work out how to use it effectively.

To be honest I've never really understood why he got the job. Sure he took Fulham to a Europa final (and lost), failed at Liverpool and stabilized the Baggies in mid-table. Those aren't really stand out credentials for an international manager. Sure he looks and sounds (i.e. his accent) like the right man for the job but I think he's more likely to lose it for us than win it.

He's a FA yes man

What did Southgate do to get the head of youth development and then the U21 job?

Same with Pearce, failed as a manager so landed the U21 job, failed time and time again and kept his job

I was a bit younger so never really understood it but what did Brooking do that qualified him for his role for all those years?

[TheAuthority]

12 minutes ago, PaulC said:

When was the last time we had a good manager. Venables? 

That would a good shout. It was also never revealed exactly why El Tel resigned. Something about his business dealings wouldn't reflect well on the FA - all very hush hush at the time I seem to remember. 

Hoddle had something about him until he went cuckoo. Then Keegan was a disaster, and it was always argued that Sven should have achieved more given what he had at his disposal. Never agreed with McClaren being appointed. That was because the rags were desperate for an 'Englishman' after Sven. Fabio was a yawn. Have I missed anyone?

[TheAuthority]

13 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

He's a FA yes man

What did Southgate do to get the head of youth development and then the U21 job?

Same with Pearce, failed as a manager so landed the U21 job, failed time and time again and kept his job

I was a bit younger so never really understood it but what did Brooking do that qualified him for his role for all those years?

I agree with all of this. Brooking was just a good player ex-England international who didn't offend anyone thats why he got his gig. McClaren's appointment also has the same smell as all the others you mention. Yes men who can go to tea at the FA and mind their P & Q's.

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, PaulC said:

When was the last time we had a good manager. Venables? 

Sven

[VillaChris]

6 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Sven

Too tactically inflexible, football if you look back wasn't actually that great and just like Hodgson he bottled big decisions like dropping one of Gerrard-Lampard for Hargreaves in the middle two (Beckham's presence in the team around that time was also similar to the Rooney debate now) and of course shoe-horning Scholes on the left.

In fairness his first 18 months were pretty good. Turned a qualifying campaign around with that amazing 5-1 in Germany and I thought the 2002 performance was England's best in a long time. Between 2003-06 I thought England were a very overrated team with many dislikeable players.

That's the thing for me, I don't see it as black and white that Hodgson is the anti-christ for 2014 world cup and Sven is some demi god for getting quarters in 2006 for example. I look beyond that and see actually how they played in the games.

Did England really play well in 2006 world cup? No they scraped past the might of Paraguay and Trinidad, got battered by Sweden in second half of last game, scraped past Ecuador and then played alright v Portugal.

And that was with a much better and bigger pool of talent than Woy had in 2014.

[PaulC]

10 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

That would a good shout. It was also never revealed exactly why El Tel resigned. Something about his business dealings wouldn't reflect well on the FA - all very hush hush at the time I seem to remember. 

Hoddle had something about him until he went cuckoo. Then Keegan was a disaster, and it was always argued that Sven should have achieved more given what he had at his disposal. Never agreed with McClaren being appointed. That was because the rags were desperate for an 'Englishman' after Sven. Fabio was a yawn. Have I missed anyone?

Yes what is it with spurs managers and dodgy dealings! Shame for England because i think we could have really done something with El Tel. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Typical England, square pegs in round holes. Vardy not give the same sort of role that he has excelled in for club, and shoehorning Rooney in when he's not good enough at this level to be a number 10 is remarkably dumb, Ali would be the more dynamic option in that role. 

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Too tactically inflexible, football if you look back wasn't actually that great and just like Hodgson he bottled big decisions like dropping one of Gerrard-Lampard for Hargreaves in the middle two (Beckham's presence in the team around that time was also similar to the Rooney debate now) and of course shoe-horning Scholes on the left.

In fairness his first 18 months were pretty good. Turned a qualifying campaign around with that amazing 5-1 in Germany and I thought the 2002 performance was England's best in a long time. Between 2003-06 I thought England were a very overrated team with many dislikeable players.

That's the thing for me, I don't see it as black and white that Hodgson is the anti-christ for 2014 world cup and Sven is some demi god for getting quarters in 2006 for example. I look beyond that and see actually how they played in the games.

Did England really play well in 2006 world cup? No they scraped past the might of Paraguay and Trinidad, got battered by Sweden in second half of last game, scraped past Ecuador and then played alright v Portugal.

And that was with a much better and bigger pool of talent than Woy had in 2014.

England would have probably won Euro 2004 if Rooney didnt get injured, post summer 2005 it all went wrong for him but England got some great performances out of him. Germany aside they beat Argentina, got a cracking result vs Turkey when all pressure on them and had Portugal on ropes in 2004

[VillaChris]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

England would have probably won Euro 2004 if Rooney didnt get injured, post summer 2005 it all went wrong for him but England got some great performances out of him. Germany aside they beat Argentina, got a cracking result vs Turkey when all pressure on them and had Portugal on ropes in 2004

England were never convincing defensively during euro 2004, imploded v France near the end and also conceded 2 v Portugal and Croatia. 6 goals in 4 games...

It's true though Rooney was on fire  during that tournament and genuinely scared teams so maybe he'd have got them to the final. Not convinced they'd have beaten Holland in the semis though.

[PaulC]

He was only 18 then wasn't he and looked fantastic. Whats happened to him. he only looks half the player now. 

[Stevo985]

15 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Too tactically inflexible, football if you look back wasn't actually that great and just like Hodgson he bottled big decisions like dropping one of Gerrard-Lampard for Hargreaves in the middle two (Beckham's presence in the team around that time was also similar to the Rooney debate now) and of course shoe-horning Scholes on the left.

In fairness his first 18 months were pretty good. Turned a qualifying campaign around with that amazing 5-1 in Germany and I thought the 2002 performance was England's best in a long time. Between 2003-06 I thought England were a very overrated team with many dislikeable players.

That's the thing for me, I don't see it as black and white that Hodgson is the anti-christ for 2014 world cup and Sven is some demi god for getting quarters in 2006 for example. I look beyond that and see actually how they played in the games.

Did England really play well in 2006 world cup? No they scraped past the might of Paraguay and Trinidad, got battered by Sweden in second half of last game, scraped past Ecuador and then played alright v Portugal.

And that was with a much better and bigger pool of talent than Woy had in 2014.

You seemed to have gleaned a lot more from my post than I was intending.

The question was who was the last good manager England had.

The answer is Sven. 

I don't think he was amazing, I don't necessarily disgaree with uch of your post.

But he was a "good" manager.

[Stevo985]

7 hours ago, VillaChris said:

England were never convincing defensively during euro 2004, imploded v France near the end and also conceded 2 v Portugal and Croatia. 6 goals in 4 games...

It's true though Rooney was on fire  during that tournament and genuinely scared teams so maybe he'd have got them to the final. Not convinced they'd have beaten Holland in the semis though.

I think we would have. We were better than Portugal, and they were fairly comfortable against Holland.

There are two tournaments in my lifetime* that England could and should have won. Euro 1996 and Euro 2004.

 

*That I remember. I was alive for, but too young to remember, Italia 90