TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 6 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: That is a great post and sums up where the club have gone wrong. We needed someone to come in over the last handful of years and putt he brakes on our reverse and as you say stop the rot. Nothing fancy dan, not trying to build a philosophy just get us back to basics, getting the simple things right of solid defending and playing to the strengths of the squad. I look at our squad and we have a lightweight midfield who often panic in possession or lack ability and/or confidence to pay penetrative forward passes, a couple of big lumps who play up top and a number of speed merchants. I'd have focussed on quickly getting the ball back to front play off the big man get the ball out wide with plenty of crosses into the box. Not pretty but effective. I am not sure what Sherwood was trying to do with this mob for much of the season and I am not sure what Garde has done since he has been here. The defence is usually the first thing you sort out but has gradually looked worse, he has often gone with Ayew up top on his own and we have failed to keep possession in the final third as nothing has stuck or we have not had the midfielders capable of picking out Ayews runs and play to his strengths. We needed to employ simple tactics. If in doubt f**k it out at the back and going forward look to play in the final third and if that means by passing the midfield so be it. An Allardyce or Pulis could have stabilised this club and then perhaps a Remi Garde could have then come in. We have gone about it completely wrong though and now employed a guy who looks like a fish out of water and totally clue less as to how to stop the rot. I feel for him as he may well have been the right man at completely the wrong time. It seems likely he is the wrong man for us now and both him, and more importantly us, will pay a heavy price for that. That is just about the way I see it. We will just have to keep our fingers crossed and light a candle in the local church.....that Remi can apply some of the ugly stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Mantis said: Is it really that much of a surprise that Sherwood is hated given that we completely surrendered in the cup final and he helped to put us on course for relegation this season? He wasn't hated in the summer. He was hated last season check the Gil thread after games and some fans were waiting to turn on him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Just now, Zatman said: He was hated last season check the Gil thread after games and some fans were waiting to turn on him Maybe by one or two people but you get that with any manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, useless said: Just because people wanted him gone because he was a poor manager. Doesn't mean to say they hated him. Who cares, who hates who, anyway. Like you said, it's of no consequence anyway. Edited January 3, 2016 by useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Sherwood at this moment in time has been more successful than Garde, given that he actually kept us up last season and got us to only our second FA Cup final in 58 years. So do I understand the hatred towards him? No I don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Just now, PaulC said: Sherwood at this moment in time has been more successful than Garde, given that he actually kept us up last season and got us to only our second FA Cup final in 58 years. So do I understand the hatred towards him? No I don't! That's hardly a fair comparison. When Sherwood came in last season we weren't several points adrift with no confidence and we had one of the best strikers in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, PaulC said: Under Saunders the team from 76/77 I would say was our most exiting ever. 5-1 Liverpool, 5-1 Arsenal, 5-2 Ipswich. But that morphed in to a hard working side that ground out results and 110% workrate was his thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, PaulC said: Under Saunders the team from 76/77 I would say was our most exiting ever. 5-1 Liverpool, 5-1 Arsenal, 5-2 Ipswich. but we could defend so attacking was not so much of a risk. Edited January 3, 2016 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mantis said: That's hardly a fair comparison. When Sherwood came in last season we weren't several points adrift with no confidence and we had one of the best strikers in the league. not totally true, we were low on confidence as we had gone 10 league games without a win and lost 5 in a row. We had only scored 2 goals in those 10 games as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 1 minute ago, KHV said: not totally true, we were low on confidence as we had gone 10 league games without a win and lost 5 in a row. We had only scored 2 goals in those 10 games as well Low on confidence yes but I think even then they had more confidence than the players had when Garde came in in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 11 minutes ago, PaulC said: Sherwood at this moment in time has been more successful than Garde, given that he actually kept us up last season and got us to only our second FA Cup final in 58 years. So do I understand the hatred towards him? No I don't! I don't get why people keep using 'he got us to the FA cup final' line, forgetting it was a cup final final we were absolutely humiliated in, one of the most one-sided finals i have seen, and where we couldn't have complained if Arsenal had scored double what they did. And as for 'he kept us up', well yes he did a decent job, but when he took over we were only in the relegation zone on goal difference and were only 2 points of 14th. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mantis said: That's hardly a fair comparison. When Sherwood came in last season we weren't several points adrift with no confidence and we had one of the best strikers in the league. I agree on the Benteke point but when Sherwood arrived we were one point from safety with 13 games to go having not won in 10 games and taken 3 points from 30. We were completely devoid of any confidence and completely clueless in terms of scoring goals and creating chances. When Garde arrived we were 4 points from safety with 27 games to go having not won in 9 games and taken 4 points from 30. Neither manager inherited a good situation which is why they got the jobs in the first place. I have not seen one person suggest that Garde hasn't had a tough task because he has. However to have taken 4 points from 9 games, have gone from 4 points from safety to 11 whilst showing zero improvement in terms of goals scored or conceded is a poor return and not one of us would have seen that as acceptable when Sherwood was sacked. If we had there would have been no point sacking Sherwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 8 minutes ago, Mantis said: That's hardly a fair comparison. When Sherwood came in last season we weren't several points adrift with no confidence and we had one of the best strikers in the league. There is many ways of looking at it and I guess it will remain that way in whoever picks it up. There was more pressure on Sherwood when he came in because expectancy was there to save us.....With Remi he has a "get out of jail card" and understandably so. The great striker you refer to was not scoring, when Sherwood arrived, he then went in to a customary purple patch. I think Sherwood greeted the team in an unenviable position in the league, with an equally unenviable amount of games left to secure points. I think they have both had/have extremely difficult circumstances to work in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Honestly? Very poor performance so far. If the season was not over you'd be tempted to say we've got to try again. However, it is. I don't think we've anything to lose by keeping him on, seeing if he can wrestle it back and look to build. There is nobody available to my mind that it's worth ripping it up again mid season. I wouldn't spend big in the January window. We will go down, we will need football men in at the club from there. We will need to tear the squad apart and start again. Again. We are lucky because every single player in that league will want to play for us. Good luck Remi. I think you need it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: I agree on the Benteke point but when Sherwood arrived we were one point from safety with 13 games to go having not won in 10 games and taken 3 points from 30. We were completely devoid of any confidence and completely clueless in terms of scoring goals and creating chances. When Garde arrived we were 4 points from safety with 27 games to go having not won in 9 games and taken 4 points from 30. Neither manager inherited a good situation which is why they got the jobs in the first place. I have not seen one person suggest that Garde hasn't had a tough task because he has. However to have taken 4 points from 9 games, have gone from 4 points from safety to 11 whilst showing zero improvement in terms of goals scored or conceded is a poor return and not one of us would have seen that as acceptable when Sherwood was sacked. If we had there would have been no point sacking Sherwood. Err, you don't need to reel off the stats to me. What I actually said was though is that we weren't several points adrift (because we weren't). I never once tried to claim that Sherwood "inherited a good situation" but it's blatantly obvious that Garde walked into a tougher job. 2 minutes ago, TRO said: There is many ways of looking at it and I guess it will remain that way in whoever picks it up. There was more pressure on Sherwood when he came in because expectancy was there to save us.....With Remi he has a "get out of jail card" and understandably so. The great striker you refer to was not scoring, when Sherwood arrived, he then went in to a customary purple patch. I think Sherwood greeted the team in an unenviable position in the league, with an equally unenviable amount of games left to secure points. I think they have both had/have extremely difficult circumstances to work in. Benteke was still a brilliant striker - the fact that he was on a bit of a bad patch is mostly irrelevant as the quality was always there. I don't care about the "many ways of looking at it" - Garde walked into a tougher situation. Edited January 3, 2016 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Do you stick or twist Do we sign Players with one eye on the championship? getting " PREPARED"or do we sign players to have one last blast at staying up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Honestly? Very poor performance so far. If the season was not over you'd be tempted to say we've got to try again. However, it is. I don't think we've anything to lose by keeping him on, seeing if he can wrestle it back and look to build. There is nobody available to my mind that it's worth ripping it up again mid season. I wouldn't spend big in the January window. We will go down, we will need football men in at the club from there. We will need to tear the squad apart and start again. Again. We are lucky because every single player in that league will want to play for us. Good luck Remi. I think you need it. I'd agree with this and I think you sum up the mood music amongst most of us. There is no point getting rid now or, unless this run without a win was to get to ridiculous extremes, before the end of the season. Lets see how he goes and judge his overall performance then and decide if it warrants him continuing beyond the end of this season. However that shouldn't mean we can't pass judgement on how he has done so far and along the way between now and the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blasterpocket68 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 We prepare for the championship. Nigel Pearson should be appointed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallett Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Garde is playing a losing hand very sensibly - unfortunately we needed someone who could bluff the players that they were good enough to play at this level. The problems go back a long way before Garde and won't be solved until the real leadership of the club changes. In the summer after a season where we finished just above relegation we lost our four best players Vlaar, Cleverley, Delph and Benteke. Two of whom left for nothing and one for a cut price fee. We then replaced them with hardly any net spend (particularly if you include the fees for other more peripheral squad members who left). So I think we might just have got value for the money we spent on players in the summer - we simply didn't spend enough. In attack, even on paper before the season began it was difficult to see who was going to score the goals for us - Ayew or Gestede had to become the new Benteke just for us to equal our 17th position of the previous year. Even with Benteke in the team we were breaking records for not scoring - serious rebuilding of the team was necessary to fix it. The midfield has long contributed very little to the goals for column. Cleverley showed he might have gone on to change that after Sherwood arrived but he saw the direction of the club and left (I don't blame him!) In defence, Richards isn't as good as Vlaar (who was hardly amazing given his injury record) There is a reason he was free and we were able to sign him. I don't think his body can do the running necessary for full back anymore and his positional play (which is probably the most important aspect of a central defender) is not good enough. He was a good free transfer to bolster the squad but not good enough to fix the major faults in out first team. The reason he came to us is because we promised him the role he prefers and pretty much a guaranteed place -nobody else thought he was good enough for that. I wonder whether Sherwood has made Okore knee injury a long term chronic problem by continually playing him last season when he wasn't fit. I think it misfired badly at the time as I think it contributed to the huge Southampton defeat which for me was one of the big turning points in Sherwood's reign. Okore is clearly still struggling with the problem now. Lescott was a desperate effort to buy some experience and proven quality but you would have to back Pulis's judgement on calling time on him even after he'd had a great season. I think time has just caught up with him. Amavi was a great buy (although not cheap) but is crocked. Hutton tries but hasn't been good enough for a long time. for some reason Sherwood got rid of our two back up left backs (neither of whom improve the first team). The mix of players is all wrong - Joe Cole said he has never been at a club where the competition for places is so tight between players of similar ability. The club convinced themselves that this was strength in depth but in fact it is just that none of the players improves the first team. We needed to concentrate on a players who improved the first eleven as we only finished just above relegation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Mantis said: Err, you don't need to reel off the stats to me. What I actually said was though is that we weren't several points adrift (because we weren't). I never once tried to claim that Sherwood "inherited a good situation" but it's blatantly obvious that Garde walked into a tougher job. Benteke was still a brilliant striker - the fact that he was on a bit of a bad patch is mostly irrelevant as the quality was always there. I don't care about the "many ways of looking at it" - Garde walked into a tougher situation. I'm sorry Mantis, you just can't dismiss the Benteke comment as irrelevant ....its absolutely crucial.....Scoring goals to secure league points was central to the point. Adele may be a great singer, but with laryngitis, she is not going to fill the auditorium " The many way of looking at it" I explained mine.............They are opinions, you have clearly got yours. Edited January 3, 2016 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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