Genie Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, sidcow said: So it seems £24bn of the previous HS2 Budget almost 2/3 of it is now being spent on roads instead. There had better be a big of self examination from all the greens who objected to HS2 at every level, delaying it and adding costs. What happened to all the road tax money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 2 things are going to happen with scrapping HS2. All of the new projects will be skimmed off by whoever the Tories get to do the work so another money maker for cronies. selling off the land for building on the cheap as another money maker for cronies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 16 minutes ago, Genie said: What happened to all the road tax money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Nicho said: 2 things are going to happen with scrapping HS2. All of the new projects will be skimmed off by whoever the Tories get to do the work so another money maker for cronies. selling off the land for building on the cheap as another money maker for cronies. The second may happen - I hope somehow they get bogged down in legal issues that prevent this happening immediately. The former ain't going to happen, mainly because the projects aren't going to happen but also the Tories won't be in power anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2023 19 minutes ago, Genie said: What happened to all the road tax money? Vehicle Excise Duty isn't ringfenced for roads. It's just another stream of general taxation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Vehicle Excise Duty isn't ringfenced for roads. It's just another stream of general taxation. My reply was better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, sidcow said: The second may happen - I hope somehow they get bogged down in legal issues that prevent this happening immediately. The former ain't going to happen, mainly because the projects aren't going to happen but also the Tories won't be in power anyway. They will probably put them out to tender and pay for work they know won’t happen, just as what happened with Covid. Someone somewhere will make some money I’m sure of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Captain_Townsend Posted October 5, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 5, 2023 Irishman here. Mind boggling how far right the Tories have gone and how much damage they are doing to Britain's reputation. I sincerely hope you boot them out next time. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 49 minutes ago, sidcow said: So it seems £24bn of the previous HS2 Budget almost 2/3 of it is now being spent on roads instead. There had better be a big of self examination from all the greens who objected to HS2 at every level, delaying it and adding costs. I really don’t think you can blame the greens for the blues replacing a scam with a shit idea. HS2 was never ever what you or I wanted it to be, which is a genuine shame and I understand the frustration. But it really really isn’t the fault of Caroline Lucas or Chris Packham. Just as an example of the low quality thinking, why promise a North Wales electrification of the railways, when they never finished the South Wales electrification? You want value for money, surely you finish the project you completed 90% of? I’ll throw in a prediction for you, one of my terribly cynical ones. Should the North Wales electrification ever happen, it won’t cost £1Billion, it’ll cost £2.4Billion and it won’t go all the way to Ynys Mon, it’ll stop just short because its costing too much money, which will mean they won’t be able to run pure electric trains on it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I really don’t think you can blame the greens for the blues replacing a scam with a shit idea. HS2 was never ever what you or I wanted it to be, which is a genuine shame and I understand the frustration. But it really really isn’t the fault of Caroline Lucas or Chris Packham. Just as an example of the low quality thinking, why promise a North Wales electrification of the railways, when they never finished the South Wales electrification? You want value for money, surely you finish the project you completed 90% of? I’ll throw in a prediction for you, one of my terribly cynical ones. Should the North Wales electrification ever happen, it won’t cost £1Billion, it’ll cost £2.4Billion and it won’t go all the way to Ynys Mon, it’ll stop just short because its costing too much money, which will mean they won’t be able to run pure electric trains on it. Oh I agree. But we WOULD have got HS2, even at huge cost. They would still have delivered it eventually instead of pie in the sky smaller schemes that either won't get built at all or will run massively over budget just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) Trying to work out if Brum has got the best of a bad deal here. seems we will at least have the high speed link to London which you would imagine would see investment flowing upwards. We'll get for sure (probably were anyway) the Midlands Rail Hub which will release a lot of space into Brum, improve Eastern and some South West connections. Allow a full Camp Hill line service and probably allow more stations to Tamworth to open up. I presume we will have more paths open up from North into New Street and from South into New Street. A lot depends on exactly how they deal with the previous Avanti services through New Street. If they do utilise Curzon Street and the new line we could get an awful lot of extra services. And it seems we will get 2 new tram lines. Andy Street or whoever takes over needs to exert all influence to ensure this happens now. I've a feeling we'll be screwed over though. Can't help feel that. Edited October 5, 2023 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2023 18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I really don’t think you can blame the greens for the blues replacing a scam with a shit idea. HS2 was never ever what you or I wanted it to be, which is a genuine shame and I understand the frustration. But it really really isn’t the fault of Caroline Lucas or Chris Packham. Just as an example of the low quality thinking, why promise a North Wales electrification of the railways, when they never finished the South Wales electrification? You want value for money, surely you finish the project you completed 90% of? I’ll throw in a prediction for you, one of my terribly cynical ones. Should the North Wales electrification ever happen, it won’t cost £1Billion, it’ll cost £2.4Billion and it won’t go all the way to Ynys Mon, it’ll stop just short because its costing too much money, which will mean they won’t be able to run pure electric trains on it. Electrification of lines is actually, old redundant technology anyway. If we're moving forward, lets embrace the new. Today, the UK's newest station opened. Headbolt Lane in Kirkby. It's an extension to the Kirkby branch of the Northern Line of Merseyrail (owned by the people for the people ) They haven't bothered electrifying the track because they bought trains with rechargeable batteries in them It's currently a short distance but there are planes to further extend the range of Merseyrail trains using this new tech. First trains in the country to be capable Yes they currently require an electrified track to charge them but its another step in the right direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Just now, sidcow said: Oh I agree. But we WOULD have got HS2, even at huge cost. They would still have delivered it eventually instead of pie in the sky smaller schemes that either won't get built at all or will run massively over budget just the same. And the way it was set up, it was to deliver northerners to London. How was that going to level anything up? They started on the southern end, that way, if ever it was in jeopardy London still got its investment. I mean **** hell, even now they are STILL doing the London bit, so they’ve still expanded their commuter belt to draw in more talent to the south, but now they’re also adding a business development zone and private housing schemes. To draw in more talent to the south. 2 minutes ago, sidcow said: Trying to work out if Brum has got the best of a bad deal here. seems we will at least have the high speed link to London which you would imagine would see investment flowing upwards. I've a feeling we'll be screwed over though. Can't help feel that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Electrification of lines is actually, old redundant technology anyway. If we're moving forward, lets embrace the new. Today, the UK's newest station opened. Headbolt Lane in Kirkby. It's an extension to the Kirkby branch of the Northern Line of Merseyrail (owned by the people for the people ) They haven't bothered electrifying the track because they bought trains with rechargeable batteries in them It's currently a short distance but there are planes to further extend the range of Merseyrail trains using this new tech. First trains in the country to be capable Yes they currently require an electrified track to charge them but its another step in the right direction. I’m slightly surprised they didn’t announce they were giving Dyson and Mone ten billion to invent a nuclear train. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 21 minutes ago, bickster said: They haven't bothered electrifying the track because they bought trains with rechargeable batteries in them It's currently a short distance but there are planes to further extend the range of Merseyrail trains using this new tech. First trains in the country to be capable Probably still be cheaper than a train ticket. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 5, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2023 2 hours ago, sidcow said: There had better be a big of self examination from all the greens who objected to HS2 at every level, delaying it and adding costs. Why? The Green argument was "hugely expensive, destroys loads of ancient woodland and habitat and breaks up wildlife corridors and will kill loads of birds and animals all so people can save a relatively few minutes off journeys between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds" They weren't wrong, either. Later they factored in changing working patterns (WFH and video meetings and stuff) and they weren't wrong there either. Personally I've never been sure one way or the other whether it would be a good thing, overall, slightly tending towards the "probably not" camp. It's not cancelling it that the Tories have got wrong, it's doing it for 10 years and then cancelling it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Why? The Green argument was "hugely expensive, destroys loads of ancient woodland and habitat and breaks up wildlife corridors and will kill loads of birds and animals all so people can save a relatively few minutes off journeys between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds" They weren't wrong, either. Later they factored in changing working patterns (WFH and video meetings and stuff) and they weren't wrong there either. Personally I've never been sure one way or the other whether it would be a good thing, overall, slightly tending towards the "probably not" camp. It's not cancelling it that the Tories have got wrong, it's doing it for 10 years and then cancelling it. More roads and more cars on roads will cause a lot more pollution and wildlife damage than 1 railway line is why. That's what we're ending up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 51 minutes ago, bickster said: there are planes 29 minutes ago, Genie said: trains. Hello 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 5, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2023 17 minutes ago, sidcow said: More roads and more cars on roads will cause a lot more pollution and wildlife damage than 1 railway line is why. That's what we're ending up with. Are we? More than an unknowable number if HS2 had been built. How much would a ticket on HS2 cost? we already know that it's more expensive to travel somewhere by train, most of the time, than it is by car - so price sensitivity would be a major thing. i.e. "I can drive to London and back for 60 quid of fuel, or I can pay 90 quid and go on the train - I think I'll drive". In the north there's load and loads of track that's not electrified, with slow running rattlers - sort that out (they were going to, but cancelled that, too a few years ago). HS2 has been ludicrously expensive. There' a really good argument for saying spend the money on sorting out existing lines, stations and infrastructure and bring about improvements and traffic reduction through that. Or to say "instead of spending 100 billion quid on a line, subsidise tickets and encourage people onto trains now...." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Just now, blandy said: How much would a ticket on HS2 cost? This made it sinister from the off. It was like trickle down applied to public transport. Train prices should be linked to the minimum wage, including any high speed services. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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