The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[Davkaus]

I'm having a very hard time sympathising with someone inheriting a £1,000,000+ asset having to sell that asset and ending up with only several hundreds of thousands of pounds.

[Genie]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

Those with wealth already have it protected, they use trusts and stuff to avoid taxes. People with little wealth don’t pay it either. So that just leaves the middle folk, not poor, not rich who pay it. Like with income tax I suppose. Oh and when Mrs Queen died, I don’t think Charles King or William Prince or any of them had to pay tax on the shiny hats and big Castles and Palaces n’that.

So it seems like a tax on people not rich enough to engage the services of an accountant, but rich enough to own a house.

There’s probably a better way to do it. Sweden got rid of it and replaced it with a different system didn’t they?

Same with things like the covid debt. The super rich with their offshore banks aren’t paying tax. The poorest aren’t paying tax for obvious reasons. It’s us **** in the middle who will be footing the bill. 

Worked hard to get a good job, but not lucky enough to be a millionaire. 

(p.s. this isn’t a dig a poorer people or a suggestion they don’t work hard).

[OutByEaster?]

One of the measures of a successful democracy should be how proud you are to pay the tax that pays for the things you voted for.

I think it's fair to say we're some distance away from those lofty principles.

 

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

One of the measures of a successful democracy should be how proud you are to pay the tax that pays for the things you voted for.

I think it's fair to say we're some distance away from those lofty principles.

 

Indeed, the flip side of that is that when public services are as dire as they have been in recent years, it risks becoming a viscous cycle of people resenting how much they pay and asking why they pay so much for rubbish services.

If it wasn't for the Tories being so hopelessly incompetent, I'd suspect it was by design.

[markavfc40]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Indeed, the flip side of that is that when public services are as dire as they have been in recent years, it risks becoming a viscous cycle of people resenting how much they pay and asking why they pay so much for rubbish services.

If it wasn't for the Tories being so hopelessly incompetent, I'd suspect it was by design.

The answer to that is simple. Entrust your taxes to a government most likely to spend it wisely. Unfortunately this country has a tendency to vote Tory and has now found itself with the highest tax burden on record for shit public services. Go figure. 

[Dale]

Inheritance isn't a big societal good so taxing it makes more sense than taxing income.

Believe wealth in the UK is more genetically correlated than height. Which is absolutely mad. 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

If you inherit a million pound house, you can sell it, move to a perfectly decent place, buy a new car, have a little holiday as a reward and have £700,000 in the bank.

I don't think the maths is right, but I take the point that the system operates along those lines. I think the deal would be (assuming there's no other stuff in the estate of value) that you'd get 500K allowance and pay 40% on the other 500k - so 200 grand in tax, so once the house was sold for a million, you'd have 800 grand left. Car and a holiday, maybe 30 grand? leaving 770 grand. Move to a perfectly decent place - maybe what 250 grand (or double that if you're in London), plus house moving tax leaving maybe 500 grand (or 250 in London), not the 700 you imply.

But like I say, it's not that I'm advocating the tory policy of "no tax" more that there's a better way of doing it. It's incredibly complex at the moment, putting stuf into trusts as rich people do gets them out of it and folk in the middle pay it.

There should be no trust exemptions, bringing rich folk into paying tax and the allowances should be universally simplified.

As someone going through the process at the moment (no, it seems like we don't have to pay IHT, but boy is it complicated to work out) it's just a mess of this that and the other gotchas and get outs. It would be simpler and raise more money to (say) "what's the total value of the estate? Right, anything above (say) 325 grand (the current limit) gets taxed at (say) 25% and no exemptions, other than for surviving partner left everything - loads more tax revenue would be taken and people would pay their fair share.

Obviously the tories are desperately seeking votes and to shore up their support from their rich voters and donors.

Edited July 15, 2023 by blandy
typo and extra detail

[chrisp65]

32 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

How do they pay the tax amount on that value chris? Or lets just say its one sibling who works 9-5 job at mcdonalds how does he pay that bill? Has to sell the house most likely

Or let’s say there is 4 kids divide that you dont get much for you money. 

Ok, I guess that in your scenario, the child that works in McDonald’s is currently homeless or had been living with Dad and so now has to sell the family home.

They no longer have living parents, they hadn’t left home, they are working in McDonald’s.

Here’s what I would do:

Sell the million pound house, the govt gets £200,000 tax income.

With the remaining unearned £800,000 move somewhere really nice, off the top of my head…The Mumbles. Buy a really nice house in a really posh area on the coast. Buy a really nice car. With the remaining third of a million you still have, do nothing for ten years, just pay yourself £33,000 a year for a decade as pocket money. Can you see from that option exactly how wealthy this poor person is?

Now, you answer my original question, what services would you cut to keep all of that unearned wealth?

 

 

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don't think the maths is right, but I take the point that the system operates along those lines. I think the deal would be (assuming there's no other stuff in the estate of value) that you'd get 500K allowance and pay 40% on the other 500k - so 200 grand in tax, so once the house was sold for a million, you'd have 800 grand left. Car and a holiday, maybe 30 grand? leaving 770 grand. Move to a perfectly decent place - maybe what 250 grand (or double that if you're in London), plus house moving tax leaving maybe 500 grand (or 250 in London), not the 700 you imply.

But like I say, it's not that I'm advocating the tory policy of "no tax" more that there's a better way of doing it. It's incredibly complex at the moment, putting stuf into trusts as rich people do gets them out of it and folk in the middle pay it.

There should be no trust exemptions, bringing rich folk into paying tax and the allowances should be universally simplified.

As someone going through the process at the moment (no, it seems like we don't have to pay IHT, but boy is it complicated to work out) it's just a mess of this that and the other gotchas and get outs. It would be simpler and raise more money to (say) "what's the total value of the estate? Right, anything above (say) 325 grand (the current limit) gets taxed at (say) 25% and no exemptions, other than for surviving partner left everything - loads more tax revenue would be taken and people would pay their fair share.

Obviously the tories are desperately seeking votes and to shore up their support from their rich voters and donors.

Yeah glitched out on the maths, weirdly I thought that hadn’t posted and changed the point slightly in my post above.

The point is, you still get a lot of unearned wealth. Wanting all of it, you need to accept reduced services.

[blandy]

49 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

How do they pay the tax amount on that value chris? Or lets just say its one sibling who works 9-5 job at mcdonalds how does he pay that bill? Has to sell the house most likely

One problem is that HMRC won't give probate, allowing the house to be sold, until the tax has been at least partly paid - it's catch 22 - you can't sell the house til you've paid the tax, and you can't pay the tax in order to get probate to sell the house. it's mad.

[NurembergVillan]

Can't we just ask big companies to pay their fair share?

I read somewhere that if Boots paid the same % of corporation tax as, say, me everyone in this country could have free prescriptions for 3 years.

Now, I'm being somewhat mischievous here because I clearly know it's not that simple but I'd be intrigued to hear some other views on that approach.

[Demitri_C]

32 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Ok, I guess that in your scenario, the child that works in McDonald’s is currently homeless or had been living with Dad and so now has to sell the family home.

They no longer have living parents, they hadn’t left home, they are working in McDonald’s.

Here’s what I would do:

Sell the million pound house, the govt gets £200,000 tax income.

With the remaining unearned £800,000 move somewhere really nice, off the top of my head…The Mumbles. Buy a really nice house in a really posh area on the coast. Buy a really nice car. With the remaining third of a million you still have, do nothing for ten years, just pay yourself £33,000 a year for a decade as pocket money. Can you see from that option exactly how wealthy this poor person is?

Now, you answer my original question, what services would you cut to keep all of that unearned wealth?

 

 

Your scenerio wont work because you havent filtered all the other costs  eg stamp duty legal fees etc its not that simple. Also you have filtered in if there are other siblings so less cut.

Now to answer your question why do services nesd to be cut? Tax in other ways like NV said bigger companies, tax profits more, pay more in NI, or put VAT up slightly. Tax more on if you have x amount of properties and also tax mode nom doms or whatever you call those clearings in the woods who dont pay the uk tax

Id make cuts in NHS - but not in the way you think. Cut the volume of upper management and get more staff at the bottom. That alone would save money in nhs

[Demitri_C]

32 minutes ago, blandy said:

One problem is that HMRC won't give probate, allowing the house to be sold, until the tax has been at least partly paid - it's catch 22 - you can't sell the house til you've paid the tax, and you can't pay the tax in order to get probate to sell the house. it's mad.

Yea thats a very good pete. I had someone in that position.  Couldnt sell the house as it was so old the offers they were getting were so poor/low its just sitting there empty bwcause they cant sell it

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Your scenerio wont work because you havent filtered all the other costs  eg stamp duty legal fees etc its not that simple. Also you have filtered in if there are other siblings so less cut.

Now to answer your question why do services nesd to be cut? Tax in other ways like NV said bigger companies, tax profits more, pay more in NI, or put VAT up slightly. Tax more on if you have x amount of properties and also tax mode nom doms or whatever you call those clearings in the woods who dont pay the uk tax

Id make cuts in NHS - but not in the way you think. Cut the volume of upper management and get more staff at the bottom. That alone would save money in nhs

 

Tax more of the profits I make on my business that I set up, increase my NI payments on the people I employ, increase the VAT on the thing I’m trying to sell.

Pay no tax if you inherit a million you didn’t earn?

It might be your scenario that doesn’t work.

 

 

[Davkaus]

10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Also you have filtered in if there are other siblings so less cut.

 

Well, where's the problem here? If there's multiple siblings, they're selling the house anyway. They're not going to be paying any kind of capital gains tax for this house their parents bought for a pittance that's now worth a million. Why are they entitled to hundreds of thousands of pounds tax free?

Edited July 15, 2023 by Davkaus

[juanpabloangel18]

Probably already been mentioned but in England, if the circumstances are right, you can get £1m tax free inheritance.

E.g, parents own a £1m house.

Parent 1 dies - £325k universal allowance passed onto spouse, plus £175k main residence nil rate band

Parent 2 dies - total allowance £325k x 2 = £650k plus 2 x main residence allowance (£175k x 2 = £350k)

= £1 million, tax free.

 

 

[Davkaus]

16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

 

Id make cuts in NHS - but not in the way you think. Cut the volume of upper management and get more staff at the bottom. That alone would save money in nhs

We've been round the houses on this before, so I'll give you the TL;DR. The tories have spent 13 years doing what they can to cut and make "efficiency" savings, even they don't think there's much more fat they can cut without it collapsing.

[Demitri_C]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Tax more of the profits I make on my business that I set up, increase my NI payments on the people I employ, increase the VAT on the thing I’m trying to sell.

Pay no tax if you inherit a million you didn’t earn?

It might be your scenario that doesn’t work.

 

 

So on one hand your saying it effects you so your kids (if you have any) must have enough financial backing in the future in this crazy world thats falling apart so one of the fortunate ones then

So wait you dont want to pay more NI but complain about the state of the nhs? I look forward to see if you complain about this if labour do this if they win the next election as its likely to happen i would say.

With VAT i would be ok with a slight increase on that as at least with thag i choose what i buy.

With regards to your company of its a big company that NV said like boots then you must be well off so you can afford it

[Demitri_C]

8 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Well, where's the problem here? If there's multiple siblings, they're selling the house anyway. They're not going to be paying any kind of capital gains tax for this house their parents bought for a pittance that's now worth a million. Why are they entitled to hundreds of thousands of pounds tax free?

They entitled to it because their parents have been paying tax all their life to help their kids when they are no longer here like any good parent would.

Take it your going to donate all your savings to charity when your no longee here and not your kids?

I cant believe your not encouraging help for your kids in the future knowing how **** this cost of living crisis is

[Demitri_C]

5 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

We've been round the houses on this before, so I'll give you the TL;DR. The tories have spent 13 years doing what they can to cut and make "efficiency" savings, even they don't think there's much more fat they can cut without it collapsing.

So lets give up and privatise then