LondonLax Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Well there’s little to disagree with there @blandy but I’m very sceptical about the projection that once he’s convinced the voters he’s not a horse botherer, he will go on to reveal his true identity as an ideas man rather than a caretaker of managed decline. There are a lot of well meaning people that just want the tories out at any cost and based on recent experience they will support a middle manager rather than anything that could remotely be charged with being interesting. The ghost of Corbyn looms large, but it doesn’t have to be a binary choice between Corbyn and tory lite. He could announce an interesting policy in a very managerial considered way. He doesn’t have to shout announce reform whilst walking with a banner he clearly doesn’t believe in and holding his left fist aloft. But he won’t. He’ll vaguely use words that appear to promise to be the manager of our decline that 43% of us are prepared to settle for. This article makes the case that Starmers Labour is to the left of Milliband and not all that far off Corbyn’s Labour when analysed on policy. It’s just delivered by a bureaucrat in a suit that no one gets excited /worried by (depending on your voting persuasion). Quote All told, Labour now has a solid economic policy, and one which certainly cannot be characterised as “New Labour”. Its plans for industrial strategy, collective bargaining and workers’ rights are well to the left of anything done by Tony Blair and Brown. Its climate and energy programme is more radical than Miliband’s in 2015. Indeed, excepting nationalisation, it is not too far from the economic prospectus set out in Corbyn’s 2017 manifesto. https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/04/keir-starmer-government-labour-leader 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 Id love to know starmers position on everyone striking because they cant afford to give everyone a pay rise despite what people think. Your not going to give nhs staff, teachers, ambulance drivers and all the other people that want a pay rise a wage increase its simply unaffordable UNLESS you increase taxes across the board. Starmer has been on the fence about this. I suspect he wont be able to do much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 hour ago, juanpabloangel18 said: This is a highly dubious claim. Quote Ten Broken Pledges. The central document of Starmer’s leadership bid was his ‘ten pledges’, a list of promises he made to Labour members in 2020. https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/ I didn't read all of that but I kind of gave up quite early on in his going through the pledges because Starner was deemed to go against a pledge because he'd whipped the party to abstain on an issue not vote against it. There are all manner of reasons to do that, none of which he addresses. Also, as said above, Bastani is a monumental bellend whose brand of "journalism" is less than honest (just like the research in his own his PhD). He's also not very good at fact checking. Just one example that is still out there... That's the UK Govt, guilty of selling table salt for chemical weapons 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 35 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Id love to know starmers position on everyone striking because they cant afford to give everyone a pay rise despite what people think. Why can't they? HMRC estimates that over 34 billion is lost each year in tax revenue due to non compliance so there is a huge pot of money that could be tapped into if the will was there. Amazing how the magic money tree can be given a good old shake when it is to the benefit of Tory donors but when it is for those workers providing valuable public services then the old chestnut of it is unaffordable is spouted. Where there is a will there is always a way. Public sector workers have been subjected to years of real terms pay cuts leaving many worse of by over 20% in real terms since 2010. We should have been united then, as we should be now, in saying you can't cut someone's wages. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: This article makes the case that Starmers Labour is to the left of Milliband and not all that far off Corbyn’s Labour when analysed on policy. It’s just delivered by a bureaucrat in a suit that no one gets excited /worried by (depending on your voting persuasion). https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/04/keir-starmer-government-labour-leader Cheers, I’ll have a proper read of that later. I’d previously been trying to find a current manifesto. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 hour ago, bickster said: I didn't read all of that but I kind of gave up quite early on in his going through the pledges because Starner was deemed to go against a pledge because he'd whipped the party to abstain on an issue not vote against it. There are all manner of reasons to do that, none of which he addresses. Also, as said above, Bastani is a monumental bellend whose brand of "journalism" is less than honest (just like the research in his own his PhD). He's also not very good at fact checking. Just one example that is still out there... That's the UK Govt, guilty of selling table salt for chemical weapons I actually find Bastani to be the most sane and tolerable of the Novara lot. Although that really isn't saying much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 45 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Cheers, I’ll have a proper read of that later. I’d previously been trying to find a current manifesto. Manifestos tend not to appear outside election periods. It's more "floating potential policies to see what goes well", but even that's rare these days given the propensity of Governements or all colours to steal anything that looks good or popular. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 It's hard to figure out where they've got an idea of policies from to make that judgment on them being to the left or right of Miliband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: It's hard to figure out where they've got an idea of policies from to make that judgment on them being to the left or right of Miliband. Who said it was anything to do with policy? It's just public perception, which has far more to do with an impression as portrayed by the media than any specific policies. Hence Corbyn approaching 100% left. It would be interesting to see what the perception of Mick Lynch is. I reckon he'd be to the right of Corbyn when the reality is that he's further to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Who said it was anything to do with policy? The Guardian, about six posts ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 And in fairness, they've quoted a number of pledges made by the Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: The Guardian, about six posts ago. Ah cross purposes, though you were referring to the leader match up polling data from this morning 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 4 hours ago, chrisp65 said: once he’s convinced the voters he’s not a horse botherer, he will go on to reveal his true identity as an ideas man He doesn't need to be an (the) ideas man. It's (as I know you know) a Party - the party sets the agenda. It's why Labour remained pro Trident even when Catweazle was strongly against it. Yes it's always the case that the leader can influence things, but they cannot just decide and set the agenda or policies in Labour (or LDs) or Greens..etc. I'm pretty confident Labour will do a fair bit of what you'd like to see in terms of housing and Green stuff and so on. It might be too timid for some tastes, or too strong for others, but I'm certain they will (in due course) announce this stuff. Same with the economy and so on. To my perception the tories (aside from the throbber tendency) will do or say absolutely anything if they think it'll help their chances of winning. Labour is less like that. Of course they can flip and change, but it takes a lot longer - for example in the 70s they were against the EEC/EU, against the national minimum wage and so on (mainly at the behest of Union bosses (who were very wrong). It took till the 90s really for them to have flipped their views to more sane ones. On the other hand, the tories were against (Miliband's) energy price cap then introduced it within a year or so, because, expediency. Against windfall taxes on Energy companies, then...a month or two later they decided they liked it. And so on. No principles, just power the objective. Whatever it takes. So I'm sure Labour will have a focused and sane manifesto come the next election. If they do it now, half the stuff will get nicked by the tories, a quarter will be subjected to endless negative press exaggeration and horror and a quarter will be superseded by events come the election. I think they'll start laying the ground this year and then tighten it all up once an election date becomes clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinka Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 39 minutes ago, bickster said: Who said it was anything to do with policy? It's just public perception, which has far more to do with an impression as portrayed by the media than any specific policies. Hence Corbyn approaching 100% left. It would be interesting to see what the perception of Mick Lynch is. I reckon he'd be to the right of Corbyn when the reality is that he's further to the left. Mick Lynch is largely been judged on his ability to represent his members, he's doing a good job imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Why can't they? HMRC estimates that over 34 billion is lost each year in tax revenue due to non compliance so there is a huge pot of money that could be tapped into if the will was there. Amazing how the magic money tree can be given a good old shake when it is to the benefit of Tory donors but when it is for those workers providing valuable public services then the old chestnut of it is unaffordable is spouted. Where there is a will there is always a way. Public sector workers have been subjected to years of real terms pay cuts leaving many worse of by over 20% in real terms since 2010. We should have been united then, as we should be now, in saying you can't cut someone's wages. Mark I think you in for disappointment if you think starmer will be releasing a large amount of money to all public service staff teachers firemen police etc. I cant see it at all happening. When asked about this starmers dodged the question everything time with his "let me be absolutely clear" (he loves saying that and not answering the question like a typical mp) I work in public sector so i agree we have been screwed over. Havent had a proper pay rise in years. Btw im not defending tories either im just saying i cant see labour delivering pay rises to everyone that works in public service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Mark I think you in for disappointment if you think starmer will be releasing a large amount of money to all public service staff teachers firemen police etc. I cant see it at all happening. If he wants to implement the huge improvements needed in the health service, education, social care, policing etc, which he says he does, then he is going to have no choice but to improve pay as recruitment/retention are massive issues in most public sectors and you are not going to improve any of those sectors unless you can attract and retain staff. Will Labour introduce inflation busting pay rises? no I don't expect they will but I am reasonably confident they'll at least do what the Tories failed to which is ensure wages keep up with inflation and avoid the real terms pay cuts we have seen every year since the Tories came into power in 2010. Pay cuts in the name of austerity but driven by Tory ideology as one of a number of means to decimate and destroy public services by ensuring there are recruitment/retention issues. Edited January 17, 2023 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 4 hours ago, LondonLax said: This article makes the case that Starmers Labour is to the left of Milliband and not all that far off Corbyn’s Labour when analysed on policy. It’s just delivered by a bureaucrat in a suit that no one gets excited /worried by (depending on your voting persuasion). https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/04/keir-starmer-government-labour-leader I didn’t read the article, but I did revisit the Labour website. I was using the wrong search words. You’ll not find anything looking for words like policy or manifesto. But once I worked out its all now called Stronger Together there was quite a lot in there. More than I expected to be honest. It was quite bland at first and was making me think it was exactly what I’d expected. But I think this was just to put off the casual lazy journalist, once you got a few paragraphs in it was quite encouraging! I mean, not visionary, definitely still along the lines of we’ll be better than they were. But more ideas than I’d previously been able to find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: more ideas than I’d previously been able to find This is the thing with Government and opposition. In the big gaps between elections it is the job of the official opposition to perform their duty of opposing the government and holding it to account. It isn’t their job to have a widely publicised list of things they say they’ll do in 5 year’s time or whenever the next election will be. People who want to know what they stand for can seek stuff out, as you have, but to be honest it would piss me off, and I’m pretty sure many others too if the whole 5 years was just filled with electioneering by the parties. If the government governs and the opposition opposes, in normal times the difference in ideas can get debated and scrutinised and outcomes happen. It’s only when you get decades of incompetent lying thieving odious word removed self serving, harmful bile like we’ve had that there’s more of an understandable desire for the opposition to be somehow a visibly credible, very different alternative. Same applies in run ups to elections, obviously. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, blandy said: This is the thing with Government and opposition. In the big gaps between elections it is the job of the official opposition to perform their duty of opposing the government and holding it to account. It isn’t their job to have a widely publicised list of things they say they’ll do in 5 year’s time or whenever the next election will be. People who want to know what they stand for can seek stuff out, as you have, but to be honest it would piss me off, and I’m pretty sure many others too if the whole 5 years was just filled with electioneering by the parties. If the government governs and the opposition opposes, in normal times the difference in ideas can get debated and scrutinised and outcomes happen. It’s only when you get decades of incompetent lying thieving odious word removed self serving, harmful bile like we’ve had that there’s more of an understandable desire for the opposition to be somehow a visibly credible, very different alternative. Same applies in run ups to elections, obviously. I’d agree more in a ‘normal’ election cycle. But we’ve had three changes of team tory since the last election and the next election is now very unlikely to be more than 18 months away. So if ever there was an opportunity to look like you had an alternative vision and some really big ideas, it’s now. Give people more to vote for than not being the tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2023 27 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: So if ever there was an opportunity to look like you had an alternative vision and some really big ideas, it’s now. It’s in around 6 to 8 months, IMO, but I agree that it needs to start before then, to give the disinterested electorate time for the direction of travel and so on to ingrain itself widely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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