The 2015 General Election

[MakemineVanilla]

It is a pity that the coalition didn't follow FDR's example, when he formulated the 'New Deal' to tackle a similar financial crisis.

 

He cut the pay of all public employees by 15%.

 

Had the government gone that route, there would be money enough to fund the NHS and savings enough, not to have to persecute the poor and the disabled.

[meregreen]

It is a pity that the coalition didn't follow FDR'sLet's hit some of the most dedicated workers in the countrymple, when he formulated the 'New Deal' to tackle a similar financial crisis.

He cut the pay of all public employees by 15%.

Had the government gone that route, there would be money enough to fund the NHS and savings enough, not to have to persecute the poor and the disabled.

Has to be one of the most callous solutions ever.Leave the Bankers and their Hedge fund chums to wallow in their loot.Lets hit public servants, who include some of the most dedicated workers in the country.Tell me again, who caused the Depression FDR had to recover from....ah yes the Bankers and their chums on Wall St. B******D's never change.

Edited March 29, 2015 by meregreen

[smetrov]

 

 

I believe that the aim of both Labour and the Conservatives is to run the NHS so badly that the only alternative is to allow it to be 'rescued' by private firms. Both of the main parties are operated and run by corporate and financial entities, they don't in any way serve the public; in all cases I think it's worth considering that as a basis for the motivation of any action they take.

Ding ding we have a winner, that is exactly how it is. Labour or conservatives that is what's going to happen. The reality is it's too expensive and with all the influx of people coming it cannot sustain in its current form

 

You've swallowed the lies hook line and sinker. The NHS is in crisis, because it's always in crisis with Tory Govts. The Tories fought its inception, and would happily see its demise. Labour created it, and are its only real hope.

 

 

I work for the NHS - and let me tell you the reality of privatised contracts - I think most people think that contracts go to the big corporates like Glaxo health care, for example. Thats the not the case some of the contracts are going to god damm awful companies, who struggle to retain staff  - I dread phoning the one for 'oh he left' makes my job loads more difficult, - the really sad part is - I have no out - I can not kick these companies out - they seem untouchable - its so damm fustrating...

[Demitri_C]

I believe that the aim of both Labour and the Conservatives is to run the NHS so badly that the only alternative is to allow it to be 'rescued' by private firms. Both of the main parties are operated and run by corporate and financial entities, they don't in any way serve the public; in all cases I think it's worth considering that as a basis for the motivation of any action they take.

Ding ding we have a winner, that is exactly how it is. Labour or conservatives that is what's going to happen. The reality is it's too expensive and with all the influx of people coming it cannot sustain in its current form

You've swallowed the lies hook line and sinker. The NHS is in crisis, because it's always in crisis with Tory Govts. The Tories fought its inception, and would happily see its demise. Labour created it, and are its only real hope.

I think your deluded I'm afraid if you think labour will save the NHS. I work in the nhs I can tell you that is exactly how is is.yes tories like privatisation but the only way to stop the nhs is by closing the borders as we simply cannot cope with all people coming and using the service

There's no money left to build new hospitals so what other option?

[MakemineVanilla]

 

It is a pity that the coalition didn't follow FDR'sLet's hit some of the most dedicated workers in the countrymple, when he formulated the 'New Deal' to tackle a similar financial crisis.

He cut the pay of all public employees by 15%.

Had the government gone that route, there would be money enough to fund the NHS and savings enough, not to have to persecute the poor and the disabled.

Has to be one of the most callous solutions ever.Leave the Bankers and their Hedge fund chums to wallow in their loot.Lets hit public servants, who include some of the most dedicated workers in the country.Tell me again, who caused the Depression FDR had to recover from....ah yes the Bankers and their chums on Wall St. B******D's never change.

 

 

It is an interesting proposal because it highlights the question as to which is the priority - making medical professionals the best paid in Europe (which they are), or improving healthcare.

 

It is an actual choice whether we like it or not.

 

As this video shows at 6 min 40 sec, Labour put too much money in too quickly and it was wasted.

 

 

Claims that NHS professionals are dedicated are proven false by this video, which shows how medical facilities are wasted because senior consultants leave early on Fridays and theatres are left unused over the weekends.

 

 

I find this evidence far more convincing than the claim that if we would only tax the 1% more the NHS would run like clockwork.

 

The problems of the NHS need better solutions than well-intentioned slogans.

[meregreen]

The problems of the NHS need better solutions than well-intentioned slogans.

What it needs is people who believe in it. That aint the Tories, and never has been. Labour I think, do believe in it, even though they have sometimes let it down. They are still its great champions, and its best hope.

[blandy]

It is a pity that the coalition didn't follow FDR's Let's hit some of the most dedicated workers in the country, when he formulated the 'New Deal' to tackle a similar financial crisis.

He cut the pay of all public employees by 15%. Had the government gone that route, there would be money enough to fund the NHS and savings enough, not to have to persecute the poor and the disabled.

....It is an interesting proposal because it highlights the question as to which is the priority - making medical professionals the best paid in Europe (which they are), or improving healthcare.

It is an actual choice whether we like it or not.

The two very obvious problems with that are that cutting the pay of ALL public workers means cutting the pay of a very large number of low paid people.  People already struggling with high rents, high costs and having had their pay effectively cut already (below cost of living pay rises, plus VAT hikes of the Gov't). So there's the unfairness and cruelty of that. Then there's the second issue, which is that cutting the pay of all the Doctors nurses and care workers by 15% is likely, nay certain to have a massive demoralising effect on their outlook, affecting performance, absentee levels and so on, and likely to lead to many of them leaving for the private sector, or other jobs entirely, It's basically too mad even for the likes of UKIPs.

Utter bonkers.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

It is a pity that the coalition didn't follow FDR's Let's hit some of the most dedicated workers in the country, when he formulated the 'New Deal' to tackle a similar financial crisis.

He cut the pay of all public employees by 15%. Had the government gone that route, there would be money enough to fund the NHS and savings enough, not to have to persecute the poor and the disabled.

....It is an interesting proposal because it highlights the question as to which is the priority - making medical professionals the best paid in Europe (which they are), or improving healthcare.

It is an actual choice whether we like it or not.

The two very obvious problems with that are that cutting the pay of ALL public workers means cutting the pay of a very large number of low paid people.  People already struggling with high rents, high costs and having had their pay effectively cut already (below cost of living pay rises, plus VAT hikes of the Gov't). So there's the unfairness and cruelty of that. Then there's the second issue, which is that cutting the pay of all the Doctors nurses and care workers by 15% is likely, nay certain to have a massive demoralising effect on their outlook, affecting performance, absentee levels and so on, and likely to lead to many of them leaving for the private sector, or other jobs entirely, It's basically too mad even for the likes of UKIPs.

Utter bonkers.

 

 

I wouldn't doubt that it seems bonkers in this day and age, especially in modern Britain. We know that the Americans accepted it in the 1930s and German civil servants had their hours increased back in the 90s. Just as the Germans adapted to the oil-shock back in the seventies and accepted a 10% pay cut, and the British had their bout of class war, I would not expect the British to be that sensible.

 

I think present attitudes show how things haven't really changed much and if anything things have probably got worse.

 

I do chuckle when I read about the New Deal as I try and imagine a government being that radical, and the people these days making such sacrifices.

 

It was just an interesting question to establish which is the most important - the funding of the NHS or protecting the largesse Labour handed to elite public sector workers. 

 

There was always the option to protect lower paid workers, which I would consider only fair, because both Labour and the Tories have screwed lower-paid workers, while they handed out their largesse to their favoured groups.

 

I have little doubt that the very reason that no government would contemplate such a move, is that the so-called altruists who work for the NHS would have gone on strike.

 

So as everyone who can, protects their own self-interests, and the options remain few.

[snowychap]

... 

It was just an interesting question to establish which is the most important - the funding of the NHS or protecting the largesse Labour handed to elite public sector workers. 

 

There was always the option to protect lower paid workers, which I would consider only fair, because both Labour and the Tories have screwed lower-paid workers, while they handed out their largesse to their favoured groups.

...

Let's get this straight, you'd like a universal solution (of a 15% pay reduction for every public employee) but you'd like it applied to an elite section of workers whilst protecting the pay of people who probably make up the bulk (or at least a significant minority) of the workforce on which your planned reduction would fall?

[Eames]

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

[coda]

[Demitri_C]

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

ill quit if im forced to work weekends eames stupid proposal

[Eames]

 

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

ill quit if im forced to work weekends eames stupid proposal

 

It really isn't a stupid proposal - the NHS should offer the same service on a saturday as it does on a sunday. Illness generally doesn't take the weekend off to play golf.

 

The problem will be culture change - convincing an army of exceptionally well paid people that they now need to work times they don't want to.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

ill quit if im forced to work weekends eames stupid proposal

 

It really isn't a stupid proposal - the NHS should offer the same service on a saturday as it does on a sunday. Illness generally doesn't take the weekend off to play golf.

 

The problem will be culture change - convincing an army of exceptionally well paid people that they now need to work times they don't want to.

 

 

It is difficult to understand why people assume that self-interest and self-entitlement ends at the doors of NHS hospitals.

 

When you look at how doctors and consultants work and how resistant to change they are, despite being rewarded beyond what the market forces would demand, and far beyond their less important colleagues, it is impossible to see why people claim that these workers are more dedicated than anyone else.

 

The elite workers of the NHS have enjoyed substantial rises; over the last ten years nurses pay has fallen by 5% while GPs' pay has increased by 13%.

 

Over that decade the number of doctors who earn six-figure salaries quadrupled from 4000 to 16000.

 

The average GP now earns £100k. 

 

UK GPs are the highest paid amongst industrialized nations (OECD) and earn 3.4 times average earnings and do fewer consultations.

 

600 doctors earn more than £200k a year.

 

Faced with these facts it is impossible to believe that they are inspired by altruism, any more than other groups of elite workers who have managed to get themselves a bigger share of the pie in our increasingly unequal society.

[Condimentalist]

GPs are massively overpaid, no doubt about that. Surgeons and other specialists deserve the big money but for the most part being a GP is a fairly straightforward role and I've never really understood their pay packets, especially in comparison to the shit that nurses have to deal with. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by PatrickCousens

[HanoiVillan]

Isn't it because GP's are private partnerships and therefore have more leverage when negotiating? 

[bickster]

Isn't it because GP's are private partnerships and therefore have more leverage when negotiating?

They negotiate with themselves in the main. Its a ludicrous system. They get paid by the number of patients on their books but should those patients get ill in the 16 hours a day they aren't open, the patients get sent to a open 24 hours a day medical centre, people are also being encouraged to go to the chemist to be diagnosed because the doctors are over worked. They get paid by the number of people on their books then encourage or force patients to use a different service. It's akin to fraud tbh. Its not even like they work Mon to Fri either. You go to our surgery and there's probably 6 or 7 doctors who work there but there's only ever 2 maybe three on duty in any one day. They are rarely even open on a Saturday, for that you have to have an appointment booked well in advance

The Madness of privatisation

[Demitri_C]

 

 

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

ill quit if im forced to work weekends eames stupid proposal

 

It really isn't a stupid proposal - the NHS should offer the same service on a saturday as it does on a sunday. Illness generally doesn't take the weekend off to play golf.

 

The problem will be culture change - convincing an army of exceptionally well paid people that they now need to work times they don't want to.

 

It really is as its not just doctors, what about all the outpatient staff, nurses that they have failed to give a pay increase for over 5 years, not even a measley 1%/ how can they ask these people to now give up their weekends as well?

 

regarding consultants most that i have got to know at work dont "play golf" they have private clinics that they see more patients so that alone is a potential road block to why it wont work

[HanoiVillan]

 

Isn't it because GP's are private partnerships and therefore have more leverage when negotiating?

They negotiate with themselves in the main. Its a ludicrous system. They get paid by the number of patients on their books but should those patients get ill in the 16 hours a day they aren't open, the patients get sent to a open 24 hours a day medical centre, people are also being encouraged to go to the chemist to be diagnosed because the doctors are over worked. They get paid by the number of people on their books then encourage or force patients to use a different service. It's akin to fraud tbh. Its not even like they work Mon to Fri either. You go to our surgery and there's probably 6 or 7 doctors who work there but there's only ever 2 maybe three on duty in any one day. They are rarely even open on a Saturday, for that you have to have an appointment booked well in advance

The Madness of privatisation

 

 

Agreed. The system is a holdover not just from the 1950s, but from the days of bicycling parish doctors or whatever. It's absurd that people's first point of medical contact is closed the vast majority of the time (taking into account waiting lists as well as opening hours). 

 

 

 

 

 

As a "public sector worker" you and anyone else can **** off cutting my pay 15%. In the last 5 years my pay has gone up 2%.

The only reason I haven't been worse off as a result is the increase in income tax threshold has cushioned the difference.

Oh...and tangentially, you think the NHS is in a shit state now....wait until whoever gets in enforces 7 day working on Consultants. I know at least 5 who will bring their retirement forward if that happens. (It absolutely needs to) but it will be accompanied by a massive brain drain of the best.

ill quit if im forced to work weekends eames stupid proposal

 

It really isn't a stupid proposal - the NHS should offer the same service on a saturday as it does on a sunday. Illness generally doesn't take the weekend off to play golf.

 

The problem will be culture change - convincing an army of exceptionally well paid people that they now need to work times they don't want to.

 

It really is as its not just doctors, what about all the outpatient staff, nurses that they have failed to give a pay increase for over 5 years, not even a measley 1%/ how can they ask these people to now give up their weekends as well?

 

regarding consultants most that i have got to know at work dont "play golf" they have private clinics that they see more patients so that alone is a potential road block to why it wont work

 

 

I assume that 'seven day working' doesn't actually mean every consultant working every day of their lives, it means a rota on which sometimes consultants get assigned weekend hours. If that cuts into their private moonlighting, tough. 

[tonyh29]

polls suggesting Clegg could be voted out in May

Ed doing all he can to lose the election , zero hours gaffs ,lies and hypocrisy this time

Will Cameron be the last man standing ? Or will a hung parliament see all 3 of them out of office ?