briny_ear Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 MON didn't even try to win a European Cup game.He gets accused of a lot of things on this site but I think that's the first time I've seen him criticised for not trying to win a game in a competition we never entered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I see we've got his and hers avatars now. I think you'll find I've stepped away from this debate (and I have done for a fair bit of time now) so not only is your dig unnecessary, it's inaccurate to boot. Toodles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa-revolution Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Paul Lambert is the next best thing to Martin O' Neill which is why I have every faith that he will come good. Just as MON learned his business under his mentor Brian Clough, so likewise Lambo will emerge the same from his days playing under MON at Celtic. That is the main reason why Paul Lambert should not get the sack. 18 months in is no time at all to judge the man & I for one am backing Lambo 110% to the hilt. Take a bow Lambo Son, take a bow! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You say that as if O'Neill is something to aspire to. If Lambert is to succeed at Villa (or anywhere else in top level football) then he'll need to be pretty much the opposite of what O'Neill is/was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I do think Lambert is far less stubborn than MON, and I do believe he will turn around the home form and eventually get us into the top eight given some time and investment. The waiting is the hardest part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I do think Lambert is far less stubborn than MON, and I do believe he will turn around the home form and eventually get us into the top eight given some time and investment. The waiting is the hardest part. Lambert is 100x more stubborn than MON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I do think Lambert is far less stubborn than MON, and I do believe he will turn around the home form and eventually get us into the top eight given some time and investment. The waiting is the hardest part. Lambert is 100x more stubborn than MON I will post in more detail when I have some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You say that as if O'Neill is something to aspire to. If Lambert is to succeed at Villa (or anywhere else in top level football) then he'll need to be pretty much the opposite of what O'Neill is/was. We can have a debate all day long about the pros and cons of the artist known as MON, but to act like he is one big negative is bizarre. We had plenty of highlights during his time. Now maybe we paid a heavy price. And maybe he had his limitations, but we did have some good times. Or did I imagine it all? If we stuff the Baggies (the SHA isn’t in the premiership) 5-1 I am presuming thats something we shouldn’t aspire to? I think you need to define success? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raver50032 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Silence on these comments from Wes Brown-http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/capital-one-cup-semi-finals-sunderlands-2994539 It's easy to dismiss a competition when you've already won it several times (along with league titles, FA Cups and Champions League medals). I'm sure if you asked someone like Bardsley or Fletcher if they fancied a Wembley final, you'd get a different opinion. What the players say to their closest mates I'd imagine would be very different to what they say in the media. If I were a player, and it just so happened I ended up at Sunderland, I'd treasure more than anything the Capital One medal a lot more after my career than anything else in it - especially avoiding relegation. If it were a case of Villa winning the Capital One Cup or relegation then it would be harder, but I'd probably still choose the Capital One Cup. I remember when we won it twice in the 90's and those memories I treasure a lot more than any league position we obtained. And we finished 4th in 1996 as well... These days, such an average league placement gets you CL football... If only the goalposts at UEFA had been moved earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted January 7, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2014 First proper post on this site so, er, hi everyone(!) Furthermore, apologies if this has been repeated elsewhere in this 142 page thread... ...however, as far as I'm concerned, it's fairly ridiculous to be calling for Lambert's head already. One of the biggest problems at Villa over the past few seasons has been instability and, whilst this is undoubtedly one of the biggest clichés in football, it certainly doesn't help a club to progress. We all know what Lambert's remit is/has been - utilize a small budget to re-create an entire squad with the bigger earners (in general) to be removed from the playing staff. The back end of last season filled most people with hope and some folk on here even dared to predict a top 6 or 8 finish this season which, given last season, always seemed to be a bit optimistic. This has been the Jekyll and Hyde nature of our fan base for as long as I can remember - 6 months ago we're finishing top 6, now we need to sack the manager. For all Lambert's faults (and there are plenty), we need to look at the bigger picture for a change. What we will have next season is a squad that has had 2 years of fight instilled within them as well as, hopefully, a blend between the foreign players that have been signed and our British players. I think this is an important transitional point as many of the squad don't have English as their first language but are being thrust into first team action potentially too soon. Lambert's fault? Well, possibly, but being given a relatively small budget to re-build an entire squad means you have to look outside of the British premium territory. And so, coupled with this, we can evaluate his signings to an extent. I have no doubt that players such as Tonev, Luna, Bacuna, Bowery etc. are not first team players for the long haul. However, the impression I get is that Lambert does recognise where we are struggling - the signing of Okore in defence (incredibly unlucky with the injury) as we needed to tighten up; the signing of Tonev to score goals from midfield as we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the signing of a utility player with good set pieces in Bacuna because our squad is small by comparison and we've lacked any real threat on these since Young left; the signing of Kozak because, again, we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the persuit of Kiyotake as we need a creative midfielder more than anything - and this will more than likely continue this month. Have they all worked out? No. Tonev has been useless so far - but then you're working with money that doesn't get you that much quality. It's more a case of hit (Benteke, Lowton, Bacuna imo) or miss (Tonev, Luna) but the outlay on them doesn't cripple us with more debt if they go wrong. They're young enough (mid 20's) to sell on for a price that won't £10m less than what we paid for them. I fully expect more quality to be added now that an initial squad is in place. Moreso, I'm willing to put up with another season of struggle as long as we secure Premier League survival because this is more than likely Lambert's goal for the first 2 seasons in charge. Our performances need to improve, of course, and the lack of possession we're seeing at the moment is incredibly worrying. However, this won't happen straight away with yet another change of manager - our squad is short on quality and absolutely everyone can see this. For me, Lambert has until the end of next season. If he hasn't made a noted improvement in Aston Villa after 3 seasons in charge, we need to look elsewhere... but at least we'll be financially stable and with a base on which any manager can build. I'd be far more worried if we were another team in claret and blue who had pinned all our money, hopes and dreams on a striker this season for him not to work out - and it wasn't so long ago that Darren Bent was that player for us. Things could be a lot worse homies. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I see we've got his and hers avatars now. I think you'll find I've stepped away from this debate (and I have done for a fair bit of time now) so not only is your dig unnecessary, it's inaccurate to boot. Toodles I don't think we've ever had a debate concerning avatars so no inaccuracy there and it was a joke man, lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 First proper post on this site so, er, hi everyone(!) Furthermore, apologies if this has been repeated elsewhere in this 142 page thread... ...however, as far as I'm concerned, it's fairly ridiculous to be calling for Lambert's head already. One of the biggest problems at Villa over the past few seasons has been instability and, whilst this is undoubtedly one of the biggest clichés in football, it certainly doesn't help a club to progress. We all know what Lambert's remit is/has been - utilize a small budget to re-create an entire squad with the bigger earners (in general) to be removed from the playing staff. The back end of last season filled most people with hope and some folk on here even dared to predict a top 6 or 8 finish this season which, given last season, always seemed to be a bit optimistic. This has been the Jekyll and Hyde nature of our fan base for as long as I can remember - 6 months ago we're finishing top 6, now we need to sack the manager. For all Lambert's faults (and there are plenty), we need to look at the bigger picture for a change. What we will have next season is a squad that has had 2 years of fight instilled within them as well as, hopefully, a blend between the foreign players that have been signed and our British players. I think this is an important transitional point as many of the squad don't have English as their first language but are being thrust into first team action potentially too soon. Lambert's fault? Well, possibly, but being given a relatively small budget to re-build an entire squad means you have to look outside of the British premium territory. And so, coupled with this, we can evaluate his signings to an extent. I have no doubt that players such as Tonev, Luna, Bacuna, Bowery etc. are not first team players for the long haul. However, the impression I get is that Lambert does recognise where we are struggling - the signing of Okore in defence (incredibly unlucky with the injury) as we needed to tighten up; the signing of Tonev to score goals from midfield as we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the signing of a utility player with good set pieces in Bacuna because our squad is small by comparison and we've lacked any real threat on these since Young left; the signing of Kozak because, again, we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the persuit of Kiyotake as we need a creative midfielder more than anything - and this will more than likely continue this month. Have they all worked out? No. Tonev has been useless so far - but then you're working with money that doesn't get you that much quality. It's more a case of hit (Benteke, Lowton, Bacuna imo) or miss (Tonev, Luna) but the outlay on them doesn't cripple us with more debt if they go wrong. They're young enough (mid 20's) to sell on for a price that won't £10m less than what we paid for them. I fully expect more quality to be added now that an initial squad is in place. Moreso, I'm willing to put up with another season of struggle as long as we secure Premier League survival because this is more than likely Lambert's goal for the first 2 seasons in charge. Our performances need to improve, of course, and the lack of possession we're seeing at the moment is incredibly worrying. However, this won't happen straight away with yet another change of manager - our squad is short on quality and absolutely everyone can see this. For me, Lambert has until the end of next season. If he hasn't made a noted improvement in Aston Villa after 3 seasons in charge, we need to look elsewhere... but at least we'll be financially stable and with a base on which any manager can build. I'd be far more worried if we were another team in claret and blue who had pinned all our money, hopes and dreams on a striker this season for him not to work out - and it wasn't so long ago that Darren Bent was that player for us. Things could be a lot worse homies. The problem is that even though he has identified where the problems are he has yet to find the solution. This season not one part of the team is stronger than before Lambert became manager and therein lies the main problem. Bent did work out with his goals saving us from relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You say that as if O'Neill is something to aspire to. If Lambert is to succeed at Villa (or anywhere else in top level football) then he'll need to be pretty much the opposite of what O'Neill is/was. We can have a debate all day long about the pros and cons of the artist known as MON, but to act like he is one big negative is bizarre. We had plenty of highlights during his time. Now maybe we paid a heavy price. And maybe he had his limitations, but we did have some good times. Or did I imagine it all? If we stuff the Baggies (the SHA isn’t in the premiership) 5-1 I am presuming thats something we shouldn’t aspire to? I think you need to define success? We did have some good times, but it was all built on unsustainable foundations. I think you're missing the point of what I said. Saying "O'Neill isn't something that should be aspired to" isn't saying "We shouldn't aspire to thrash SHA 5-1 or beat United away at Old Trafford". Let's face it, without the tons of money that was pumped in we likely would never have done those things. Some will argue that you need to spend lots of money to be competitive these days (and I agree with them to an extent) but even then, O'Neill is not the man you want managing a club with that kind of money at his disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rodigan Posted January 7, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2014 by my reckoning, PL is the fifth longest standing premier league manager, and he hasn't even been in place for two years. that is an amazing stat to me, and i think is a massive reason why so many of the squads are underperforming. the vast majority of PL's starting XI had virtually no premier league experience at the start of his tenure. Despite that, he has put together a squad that are not in the relegation zone, that seem to have solidarity and are not heard whinging or moaning, that are developing a new leadership group with guzan, vlaar, gabby and ciaran, as well as players like delph and westwood stepping up. i absolutely loved gabby taking the whole squad over to the bench when he scored the other day - the players are still behind PL, and thats a big part of what a manager needs... our two key players - vlaar and benteke are out or struggling, and the results have gone against us, as a result. Take the key players out of any squad out of the top six, and i reckon you'd see the same - that is the problem with thin squads... i just don't know what a new manager would do, or want to do with our current squad - RL is not going to give anyone massive funds - he'll give some, but that's it... bearing that in mind, the question now becomes, who out there do we think would do a better job in both the long and short term with PL's existing squad? the only player that i think PL should be giving a run, and isn't is probably helenius... throwing in players like GG, or grealish, when we're on a run of getting spanked is just likely to break those guys as players.... Times are shit right now, and with arse and liverplop coming up, they're not going to get better quickly, but what i think PL has created is a base squad of players that he can enhance now player by player... none of the young players that he has bought in will be sold at much of a loss if they move on, and he certainly hasn't looked afraid to do so, if he thought it was necessary. lets see if he addresses some of the holes in this window - at least we can see where they are, and in my opinion, we're not many players away from being a good upper mid-table team... PL still has my support... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I do think Lambert is far less stubborn than MON, and I do believe he will turn around the home form and eventually get us into the top eight given some time and investment. The waiting is the hardest part. Lambert is 100x more stubborn than MON Exactly what I was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I agree that Lambert is stubborn but how is he more stubborn than O'Neill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The problem is that even though he has identified where the problems are he has yet to find the solution. This season not one part of the team is stronger than before Lambert became manager and therein lies the main problem. Bent did work out with his goals saving us from relegation. Again, though, you're not looking at the bigger picture. Lambert's remit has obviously never been to install a first 11 that was better than it already was - it was to reduce the playing staff costs whilst maintaining a squad. In that respect, he really hasn't done too badly. Having said this, though, I'd rather have Benteke and Kozak as our strike force than Bent and Heskey, I'd rather have Guzan as first choice goalkeeper than Given and I'd rather have Vlaar and Okore/Baker/Clark than Collins and Dunne (especially now). The only part of our team that is now definitely weaker than before Lambert became manager is midfield - and how much of that has been down to Petrov's illness? That kind of experienced head in the centre of the park would work wonders right now, especially alongside Westwood who is tidy yet unspectacular and Delph who has improved in abounds but is still a naive player. Now, in terms of looking for a solution, you'll not always get exactly what you thought you were getting. This isn't really down to the fault of anyone - on YouTube footage (lol) alone, I was quite excited by the prospect of Tonev and, from a scouting point of view, he'd have looked like a good gamble from Bulgaria. That's all it ever is though; a gamble. Sometimes the gambles work (Benteke) sometimes they don't (Soldado), but ultimately our approach is less risky which is only a good thing for the football club itself coming from where we've been financially. It will never please the fans because we want instant success on the pitch (whether success is trophy-based or attractive football-based) but fans, ultimately, are passion led and, thus, completely open to swinging bias. At the start of the season, we beat Arsenal 3-1 away from home. Our season was looking rosy, we followed it up with good performances on the whole against Chelsea, Liverpool and half a game against Newcastle (up until Benteke got injured against Norwich really) and Arsenal fans wanted Wenger sacked. How things have changed, eh? Fans will always want things instantaneously but, the reality is, it's rarely if ever that good. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danishlad Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 First proper post on this site so, er, hi everyone(!) Furthermore, apologies if this has been repeated elsewhere in this 142 page thread... ...however, as far as I'm concerned, it's fairly ridiculous to be calling for Lambert's head already. One of the biggest problems at Villa over the past few seasons has been instability and, whilst this is undoubtedly one of the biggest clichés in football, it certainly doesn't help a club to progress. We all know what Lambert's remit is/has been - utilize a small budget to re-create an entire squad with the bigger earners (in general) to be removed from the playing staff. The back end of last season filled most people with hope and some folk on here even dared to predict a top 6 or 8 finish this season which, given last season, always seemed to be a bit optimistic. This has been the Jekyll and Hyde nature of our fan base for as long as I can remember - 6 months ago we're finishing top 6, now we need to sack the manager. For all Lambert's faults (and there are plenty), we need to look at the bigger picture for a change. What we will have next season is a squad that has had 2 years of fight instilled within them as well as, hopefully, a blend between the foreign players that have been signed and our British players. I think this is an important transitional point as many of the squad don't have English as their first language but are being thrust into first team action potentially too soon. Lambert's fault? Well, possibly, but being given a relatively small budget to re-build an entire squad means you have to look outside of the British premium territory. And so, coupled with this, we can evaluate his signings to an extent. I have no doubt that players such as Tonev, Luna, Bacuna, Bowery etc. are not first team players for the long haul. However, the impression I get is that Lambert does recognise where we are struggling - the signing of Okore in defence (incredibly unlucky with the injury) as we needed to tighten up; the signing of Tonev to score goals from midfield as we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the signing of a utility player with good set pieces in Bacuna because our squad is small by comparison and we've lacked any real threat on these since Young left; the signing of Kozak because, again, we were over-reliant on Benteke last season; the persuit of Kiyotake as we need a creative midfielder more than anything - and this will more than likely continue this month. Have they all worked out? No. Tonev has been useless so far - but then you're working with money that doesn't get you that much quality. It's more a case of hit (Benteke, Lowton, Bacuna imo) or miss (Tonev, Luna) but the outlay on them doesn't cripple us with more debt if they go wrong. They're young enough (mid 20's) to sell on for a price that won't £10m less than what we paid for them. I fully expect more quality to be added now that an initial squad is in place. Moreso, I'm willing to put up with another season of struggle as long as we secure Premier League survival because this is more than likely Lambert's goal for the first 2 seasons in charge. Our performances need to improve, of course, and the lack of possession we're seeing at the moment is incredibly worrying. However, this won't happen straight away with yet another change of manager - our squad is short on quality and absolutely everyone can see this. For me, Lambert has until the end of next season. If he hasn't made a noted improvement in Aston Villa after 3 seasons in charge, we need to look elsewhere... but at least we'll be financially stable and with a base on which any manager can build. I'd be far more worried if we were another team in claret and blue who had pinned all our money, hopes and dreams on a striker this season for him not to work out - and it wasn't so long ago that Darren Bent was that player for us. Things could be a lot worse homies. I think you also have to throw this into the mix. We lost 8-0 last year when we played a totally open game against Chelsea. We're the fans happy? Of course not. He has changed it this year so we are definitely harder to beat. Using our strengths to counter attack. Are the fans happy? Still no, the football is poor. He is working with pittance. Hoping the youngsters come good (Bale). Building a team that is hard to beat. He needs time. It's a tough job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted January 7, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 7, 2014 Good opening posts Bobzy. Welcome to the site. You'll never keep up that standard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I see we've got his and hers avatars now. I think you'll find I've stepped away from this debate (and I have done for a fair bit of time now) so not only is your dig unnecessary, it's inaccurate to boot. Toodles I don't think we've ever had a debate concerning avatars so no inaccuracy there and it was a joke man, lighten up. Sorry I'm used to automatically assuming from previous exchanges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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