Why Paul Lambert should get the sack

[Risso]

 

No it isn't.  Manchester United had finished 2nd in the league by then.

 

So Alex Ferguson is not a good example of stability and longevity? Please take into consideration that this banner was produced after two seasons of finishing in mediocre positions and the mood of supporters were at a low, any similarities? There is article on the guy who produced that banner, it is a decent read if you have some time.

 

 

Two seasons of finishing in mediocre positions?  He finished second in his second season.  Good lord, you're not even trying now.

[Risso]

 

If Lambert's hands have been tied by Lerner's funding to date and he is now saying he wants to add some experience to the side in order to steady the recent wobble in the youngsters' confidence, shouldn't we at least give him January to see what he can do with the squad? By all accounts we're going to sign a #10, a 'name' and if possible a defensive player. Sounds good to me and let's face it, it's not like a new manager would be given oodles of cash in January to start from scratch. Arguably 3 of our best players (Vlaar, Benteke, Okore (he's the arguable one)) are injured at present and we were more than fine until Vlaar's injury. If we make some canny signings in January we'll be fine again. Odds are with Vlaar and Benteke back we'll be fine anyway. IMHO it'd be madness and stupidly but typically short-sighted to start over again.

 

This is far too sensible. Sacking the manager would be much more exciting for the next couple of weeks! Especially when we might be able to attract the likes of Steve Bruce.

 

 

It would be madness to stick with a manager who plays such utterly shite football.  A few loan signings aren't going to change that, whatever Hairyhands says.

[OutByEaster?]

I think it's worth reviewing again at the end of the season. I'm comfortable in that position because I don't think we're going down. We're in poor form at the moment and we're awful to watch, but I think we'll come through it. I'm generally in favour of keeping a manager anyway, and with the job being what it is, I think we're best to have a little patience for the time being.

[HeyAnty]

If Lambert's hands have been tied by Lerner's funding to date and he is now saying he wants to add some experience to the side in order to steady the recent wobble in the youngsters' confidence, shouldn't we at least give him January to see what he can do with the squad? By all accounts we're going to sign a #10, a 'name' and if possible a defensive player. Sounds good to me and let's face it, it's not like a new manager would be given oodles of cash in January to start from scratch. Arguably 3 of our best players (Vlaar, Benteke, Okore (he's the arguable one)) are injured at present and we were more than fine until Vlaar's injury. If we make some canny signings in January we'll be fine again. Odds are with Vlaar and Benteke back we'll be fine anyway. IMHO it'd be madness and stupidly but typically short-sighted to start over again.

This is far too sensible. Sacking the manager would be much more exciting for the next couple of weeks! Especially when we might be able to attract the likes of Steve Bruce.

It would be madness to stick with a manager who plays such utterly shite football. A few loan signings aren't going to change that, whatever Hairyhands says.

We were playing some of the best football I've saw at Villa for a long time during the last 3 months of last season. It proves that Lambert can get the players playing it. Wait to we have few good players back in the team and IMO we will be back playing the same.

[markavfc40]

If Lambert's hands have been tied by Lerner's funding to date and he is now saying he wants to add some experience to the side in order to steady the recent wobble in the youngsters' confidence, shouldn't we at least give him January to see what he can do with the squad? By all accounts we're going to sign a #10, a 'name' and if possible a defensive player. Sounds good to me and let's face it, it's not like a new manager would be given oodles of cash in January to start from scratch. Arguably 3 of our best players (Vlaar, Benteke, Okore (he's the arguable one)) are injured at present and we were more than fine until Vlaar's injury. If we make some canny signings in January we'll be fine again. Odds are with Vlaar and Benteke back we'll be fine anyway. IMHO it'd be madness and stupidly but typically short-sighted to start over again.

 

You see on the face of it this all looks very reasonable. Trouble is I still think it masks over what have been long-standing issues. Way before Vlaar and Benteke were injured we were serving up tripe. We were however thankfully picking up the odd decent result.

For me since the first two games we have been on a rapid downwards spiral performance wise. In mid September we were very poor at home against Newcastle, got battered by Spurs in the cup but to off set it beat Norwich and Man City. From October onwards it has been utter tripe. Although the score lines didn't reflect it we were battered by Spurs and Everton, had draws against West Ham and Hull in very poor games, should have been 4 down at West Brom before a spirited last 30 minutes and should have been beaten at home by Sunderland. The two wins in the last 3 months (13 games) have come against Cardiff and Southampton. Against Cardiff we were crap for 70 odd minutes and we all know the stats from the Southampton game - 23% possession etc.

I would love to believe that the return of Vlaar and Benteke will solve many of our problems but I just don't see it. The problems were very much apparent long before they got injured.

What gives me greater hope that we can have an upturn in form is that Lambert has intimated he wants to bring in some experience and proven quality at this level. It is something we have been crying out for since August 2012 and long over due. I just hope he brings in the players needed in the next week or so as looking at our fixtures 10 league games without a win looks a very real possibility especially if we don't secure a win tomorrow.

I  have heavily backed Lambert from day one by the way and am still desperate for him succeed. I can't let that distort my view of what has been staring me right in the face though and kid others and more importantly myself. Without changes in personnel, a more positive approach to games and more emphasis on retaining possession then things will inevitably continue as they have been.

Edited December 31, 2013 by markavfc40

[Big_John_10]

Using fergie as an example that giving a manager time equals success is like using messi as a reason to throw in youngsters at an early age.

[BOF]

You see on the face of it this all looks very reasonable. Trouble is I still think it masks over what have been long-standing issues. Way before Vlaar and Benteke were injured we were serving up tripe. We were however thankfully picking up the odd decent result.

For me since the first two games we have been on a rapid downwards spiral performance wise. In mid September we were very poor at home against Newcastle, got battered by Spurs in the cup but to off set it beat Norwich and Man City. From October onwards it has been utter tripe. Although the score lines didn't reflect it we were battered by Spurs and Everton, had draws against West Ham and Hull in very poor games, should have been 4 down at West Brom before a spirited last 30 minutes and should have been beaten at home by Sunderland. The two wins in the last 3 months (13 games) have come against Cardiff and Southampton. Against Cardiff we were crap for 70 odd minutes and we all know the stats from the Southampton game - 23% possession etc.

I would love to believe that the return of Vlaar and Benteke will solve many of our problems but I just don't see it. The problems were very much apparent long before they got injured.

What gives me greater hope that we can have an upturn in form is that Lambert has intimated he wants to bring in some experience and proven quality at this level. It is something we have been crying out for since August 2012 and long over due. I just hope he brings in the players needed in the next week or so as looking at our fixtures 10 league games without a win looks a very real possibility especially if we don't secure a win tomorrow.

I have heavily backed Lambert from day one by the way and am still desperate for him succeed. I can't let that distort my view of what has been staring me right in the face though and kid others and more importantly myself. Without changes in personnel, a more positive approach to games and more emphasis on retaining possession then things will inevitably continue as they have been.

Your last 2 paragraphs are key Mark and you're right in the previous ones too. The promise of the kind of activity we're looking to do in January is what some have been screaming out for and it is very promising. As for our 'performances'. There's no doubting that some of our wins were lucky, although it would be unfair not to cite Chelsea as an equally unlucky defeat.

Going by Lambert's comments yesterday, it looks as though Vlaar and Benteke will both play some part (or all of...) tomorrow. If we can keep them fit and add the experience that we now seem to be looking at in January then it is possible that the pieces of the jigsaw will fit into place. I know people are saying we need 8 or 9 new first teamers but I don't believe that. It's possible that a few key positions being strengthened will re-inforce the rest. We've seen how Vlaar sorts out the entire defence because the rest can do their job unburdened. It's not impossible that a very competent attacking mid will allow the more defensive mids to do their jobs better too; further helping the defence (KEA, Ashley & Sylla have in the past looked decent so there's something there). It's very easy to lose the cohesion in a fragile (read - young) side. We've seen that in the past month. And while it's not necessarily always 'easy' to get that cohesion back, it is true that one or two good signings can improve an entire team. At a much higher level you can see Ozil as an example of that as he seemed to enhance everyone around him. Cue that last sentence being misconstrued in other responses now

[Morpheus]

This is far too sensible. Sacking the manager would be much more exciting for the next couple of weeks! Especially when we might be able to attract the likes of Steve Bruce.

Well Shteve McClaren works in the area now and has Derby into the automatic promotion places in the Chumpionship. I wonder would people be more inclined to allow that appointment this time around :)Their record since he took over.D W W D L W W W W W W W D WThey've gone from 14th to 2nd in 3 months.

BOF if Lambert was sacked and I don't think he will be McClaren would be my choice and before the usual vultures jump and start picking here is my main reasons why.

His reputation was destroyed with England so he quietly rebuilt that abroad and has taken one or two side steps to get there while probably accumulating a decent set of contacts to build a scouting network. When you think about it there are similarities to Lambert but he would come with more experience and therefore may get more out of the players here?

With that in mind he would probably understand what needs to be done here and it would be a great opportunity for him to get his reputation back to what it was before England so he'd be hungry to succeed. For those reasons he would work within our budget and would be the ideal candidate to replace Lambert not that I think Lambert is going to be sacked any time soon.

[Big_John_10]

I do feel slightly sorry for Lambert. If okore, vlaar and benteke had stayed fit I think we'd be pretty comfortbable playing average football. Those injuries have now just shown how awful the rest of the squad are and how tactically limited Lambert is without 2 key players, and let's be honest one of which is not a top premiership player.

Hopefully a couple of signings in Jan can make a huge difference but I have my doubts what they'll bring to a long term plan. Its a shame that in his 2nd year we're looking at short term fixes to survive.

[GENTLEMAN]

Two seasons of finishing in mediocre positions?  He finished second in his second season.  Good lord, you're not even trying now

 

They did finish second but you are being pedantic now. They regressed after finishing second and were on a seemingly downward spiral when the actual banner was produced. The fans low confidence was due to mediocre performances and results which is similar to our current predicament. 

 

My point was/is that we should give Lambert a chance to turn it around and allow him to a build a good team. I am willing to have a discussion about stability and longevity but that does not interest you it seems. Fair enough.

[Big_John_10]

My point was/is that we should give Lambert a chance to turn it around and allow him to a build a good team.

But using fergie as an example as to why we should do this is ridiculous. He's a once in a lifetime manager not the rule of what happens given time.

[srsmithusa]

If we sack lambert now, my respect for the club will plummet. So will my passion for supporting it. Foolish, short-sighted, petulant decision in my view.

Not saying there's never a time for a sack, but this is not it.

[VillaCas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe Lambert was right to freeze out the overpaid, underperformers (I also believe that this was part of the agreement with Lerner when he took the job)I believe that the £40m figure that is constantly trotted out is a red herring - in the same period we have lost players that cost double that to recruit

Just want to reply to the two points in bold as we've debated everything else.

I am also in no doubt that removing under-performing players on high wages was in the remit but any manager would want to do that anyway irrespective of the budget. Where we differ is that he did not have to use the guillotine on the first team in the way that he did. I have seen no quote or anything substantiated to suggest differently. What I have seen however is a quote from the chief executive stating that Lambert had a budget and it was up to him how he spent it. That's right he got rid of some and kept some - he discarded/did not renew Heskey, Holman, Collins, Cuellar, Makoun, Warnock and Hutton. He kept Given, Ireland, Dunne, Bent, Bannan, Zog, Gabby, Andi, Delph, Clark, Baker. He would have kept Petrov too if that had been an option which sadly it was not. Given, Ireland, Dunne, Bent and Bannan have since been discarded as they didn't perform and/or didn't have the right attitude and/or we already had a better option. There is not one player discarded (with the obvious exception of Petrov) who I wish was still here

Concerning your second point I think Risso has quoted stats showing an expenditure of 40m plus. Unsurprisingly you've misunderstood, again. We've paid out around £40m in fees whislt losing players that cost us around £80m in fees - a net outgoing of talent of £40m

Simple question even for you to understand.

How much has Lambert spent since he's been our manager?

I've made it a little larger in case you missed it

Since you've now confirmed the amount spent and you've previously stated that Lambert got rid of the players already at the club because they didn't impress which out of the 16 players that Lambert has signed do you think have improved our team?

Benteke and who else?

Even though they collectively cost and earn a fraction of McLs team they delivered more points and a better finish......weird huh!

Which still doesn't answer my question.

Which out of the 16 Lambert signings have improved the team? Benteke and who else? Oh and we secured our Premiership status with just one game to go while in the process of breaking all the wrong records.

When you are trying to halve the wage bill it's unlikely that you will improve the squad. however, that is what Lambert has done - collectively his team of bargain buys got more points and a higher finish than McLs on half the cost and a quarter of the wages.

If you want specifics Benteke cost 33% of Bent but is 300% better, I would prefer Lowton, Vlaar, Okore and Luna who cost £9m to Hutton, Collins, Dunne and Warnock cost more than double four or five years ago (only one of which can find a place in a struggling premiership, the rest of them nowhere). etc etc

Do you really think Ireland is better value at £80k a week than Westwood at £10k a week? I'd take KEA over Makoun, hell I'd even take Tonev over Makoun and I'd take Kozak over Heskey

The majority of the McL squad are over-priced misfits - name one who has left Villa to go on to better things.

But if you don't think that individually they are better than what was here before, to what to atribute the fact that they finished higher and got more points than the squad that went before them.....must be better management

The main problem with your debate is that you are focusing on cost rather than performance and results. Cost is obviously a massive factor which most reasonable people appreciate - im not sure which area of life or business you would expect that a huge cut to costs would lead to a substantial rise in performance! This is the last bastion of excuse left for you to defend Lambert with and it's no surprise to me or other posters that you've decided to use this after discarding 'the improvement' debate. ...but Lamberts first season did improve on McL's despite massive cost cutting - a higher finish and more points

Managers are judged on results and although Lambert has been given a lot of leeway by the fans and the board due to the financial restraints within the club if performances don't improve the chairman will ultimately have to judge Lambert on those results rather than cost.

Lastly you will note that in the latest press release Lambert has categorically stated that there is no wage cap at the club which I have continually pointed out to you by asking what wages Benteke, Delph, Weimann, Gabby, Vlaar and Guzan are earning? I have no idea what point you are struggling to make here...I don't know what wages they are on but my guess is Benteke £30k, Delph £35k Gabby £40k, Vlaar £25-30k, Guzan £25k Wiemann £25k...what this proves I've no idea

Not too many excuses left VillaCas. We are exactly where I thought we would be at this stage.....without key injuries I think we would be 4 or 5 points better off.....I expect us to finish 10th-12th this season

Edit. Just for the record I haven't and won't call for Lambert's head this season until I see who he signs in January and how those players affect the team. So you're about in the same position as me....odd that you support the idea of Steve Bruce taking over???  Whilst I feel he continues to get more out of the squad than the resources put in he has my support.....if that flips over to a sustained period when I feel he is not, he will lose my support. I expect us to pick up form as Vlaar, Benteke and a couple of new players come in

 

As I said in a previous post, my day job is working with companies to improve their Customer Service. Customers are most often dissatified when there is a disparity between expectation and percieved performance.....what you are suffering from is a classic case of over-expectation....we've suddenly dropped from near the top quartile of wages payers to the bottom quartile but you are struggling to manage your expectations accordingly

 

 

 

 

[Big_John_10]

If we sack lambert now, my respect for the club will plummet. So will my passion for supporting it. Foolish, short-sighted, petulant decision in my view.

Not saying there's never a time for a sack, but this is not it.

I wouldn't worry there is no chance of him getting the sack.

[VillaCas]

 

 

Still waiting on an answer to this VillaCas?

 

Lambert was bought in to slash the wage bill whilst remaining in the PL - your suggestion for an ideal signing : Dimitar Berbatov at 80k a week!!!!

 

Your suggestion for the ideal manager to oversee and massive cost-cutting exercise : Harry Redknapp!!!

 

You complained that Lambert wasn't signing the best players at £1m-£2m - your suggestion : (hilariously) Why doesn't he find a few players like say Roy Keane ("just one example")!!!!!

 

You began your campaign against Lambert within weeks of him starting. How long will you give the next manager, and the next and the next

 

Your first instinct with any signing is to slag them off : Example - "Benteke, the next Baloban"

 

The latest flavour of the month suggestion is laughably Steve Bruce (who incidentally would be crackers to leave Hull) a suggestion which you "like" !!!!!!!

 

We need to get off the merry-go-round and give someone a chance to build something - Lambert wasn't my first choice but he's here and so I'm backing him whilst he sorts out one of the toughest jobs in football

 

Your negative about every aspect, you only look for the bad in everything - I'd hate to view the world in those terms

 

PS Produce your own chart

 

 

Again not answering the question so I take it then you would rather not show us a graph depicting Lambert's worst stat of all. Ok I'll tell you then.

Under Lambert we have won 11 in 48 games only winning 2 out of 10 at home this season with the lowest ratio of goals scored at home this season in all four divisions. Until the game against Swansea we also failed to score in the first half at home this season but please continue to avail us of your graphs while the rest of us concern ourselves with more important stats like results. Expectations Morf, Expectations...you think we should be much much better...I think that is about what I would expect at the moment....We are in a unique situation - few clubs have gone through such a radical realignment of finances so it's understandably that you are struggling to come to terms with the situation

One last thing. If you are going to try and quote my past history on site please do your research and get it right.I beleive my comments above are all spot on

 

 

 

[Risso]

 

Two seasons of finishing in mediocre positions?  He finished second in his second season.  Good lord, you're not even trying now

 

They did finish second but you are being pedantic now. They regressed after finishing second and were on a seemingly downward spiral when the actual banner was produced. The fans low confidence was due to mediocre performances and results which is similar to our current predicament. 

 

My point was/is that we should give Lambert a chance to turn it around and allow him to a build a good team. I am willing to have a discussion about stability and longevity but that does not interest you it seems. Fair enough.

 

 

I've said before, sticking with a manager of limited ability who gets his team playing poor football is madness. 

 

And I wasn't being pedantic at all, you brought up the completely irrelevant comparison of Alex Ferguson.  The fact is that when he took over, Man U were in 21st position and he got them up to 11th that season, then, and then in his second season, got them to runners up.  There was clearly enough there to show that he was doing well and was worth sticking with.  Lambert on the other hand, was an absolute disaster last season, and isn't doing any better this season.  You see, it's sticking with a good manager that's key, not any shite manager for the sake of it.

[Big_John_10]

I think everyone would be behind the idea of giving a manager time. But risso is right, just giving someone time does not guarantee success. If you gave the wrong person time it could in fact really damage the club.

[GENTLEMAN]

But using fergie as an example as to why we should do this is ridiculous. He's a once in a lifetime manager not the rule of what happens given time

 

I think Ferguson is a valid example of longevity; I also mentioned Moyes in one of my recent posts too. Both men are great examples of stability and were given time to overcome bad spells, I hope Lambert is given a similar chance.

[VillaCas]

I think everyone would be behind the idea of giving a manager time. But risso is right, just giving someone time does not guarantee success. If you gave the wrong person time it could in fact really damage the club.

 

I agree that time does not equal success but I disagree with risso that last season was "an absolute disaster".........some peoples expectation is stuck in the MON era, given the budget employed it would be crazy to expect anything other than a struggle for a couple of seasons - even then our ability to get back in the upper reaches of the league will ulrimately be determined by finances

[AstonMartin82]

 

 

If Lambert's hands have been tied by Lerner's funding to date and he is now saying he wants to add some experience to the side in order to steady the recent wobble in the youngsters' confidence, shouldn't we at least give him January to see what he can do with the squad? By all accounts we're going to sign a #10, a 'name' and if possible a defensive player. Sounds good to me and let's face it, it's not like a new manager would be given oodles of cash in January to start from scratch. Arguably 3 of our best players (Vlaar, Benteke, Okore (he's the arguable one)) are injured at present and we were more than fine until Vlaar's injury. If we make some canny signings in January we'll be fine again. Odds are with Vlaar and Benteke back we'll be fine anyway. IMHO it'd be madness and stupidly but typically short-sighted to start over again.

 

This is far too sensible. Sacking the manager would be much more exciting for the next couple of weeks! Especially when we might be able to attract the likes of Steve Bruce.

 

Steve Bruce you say? I wonder where you heard that from? Is this more ITK or is it .......................... shall we say, bollox?

 

Seriously though and ignoring your little witty post, now is exactly the time that changing managers would be a good idea. Why? because there is a window to change things in terms of players. And enough time to change fortunes around on the playing side of things.

 

Will we rid ourselves of the mumbling one? I suspect not. That aint the same as we should though

 

 

I agree entirely that if you are going to sack a manager then now is the time to do it.

 

Why I think we should stick with Lambert though is because I don't think it is Lambert that is the problem. We are lacking leaders and experience. A change of manager will deliver neither of these things. It may get the players rallied for a couple of months but then come the summer the clear out will begin again and we'd be back to where we were at the beginning of this season. I made an analogy a few pages back that if I injected myself with heroin things which be great in the short term. But longer term things would suck and the foundation for my future would not be promising.

 

Lambert sets his side up to attack and play entertaining football. The players are simply not delivering because they are either too inexperienced, suffering from second season syndrome or simply don't care. Personally I believe that this team coupled with 2 new Premier League experienced players led by Paul Lambert will mean happier days in 3 years time than sacking PL now, waiting till the summer to start again and possibly fail.

 

To me it is an easy call to make and I will believe in this until the end of the season at which time things should be reconsidered.