Counter-attack isn't working

[SikhInTrinity]

Yes lets keep possession against Spurs and try to outpass them, what planet are some people living on. Spurs had left the likes of Chadli out of their squad a player who would make a massive difference to our first team never mind the squad. The main problem PL has is lack of movement, our movement off the ball is rubbish, bringing an AM to pass to players who don't move. PL needs to address Weimann and Gabby and the issue of the 3 regimented in midfield.

[Zatman]

I think Westwood and Lowton going off the boil has damaged the style of play, hoping both get back into form quickly

[switters]

guess we could try something like:

 

Lowton-Vlaar-Clark/Baker-Luna

Bacuna-KEA-Delph-Gabby

Weimann/Kozak-Benteke

 

not a huge difference (it'd be like a 433 sometimes), but would be interesting to see if Bacuna & Lowton could forge a partnership on the right. And whether one of Weimann or Kozak would be more effective if played closer alongside Benteke. it might be at the cost of limiting Gabby by playing him in more constrained role

[Cliffy Biro]

 

Not to mention that there was lots of impetus from the midfield offensively under MON. Whereas under Lambert the general plan is to just pass to one of the front three and hope they might produce something.

Compare the players in both midfields...

 

Ok you say compare the midfields presumably suggesting lambert has the weaker? Well again this is lamberts midfield, if it isnt good enough then its his own fault.

[Mantis]

Lambert has had a fraction of the money AVB has had at Spurs and also took over a much weaker squad.

[TRO]

That's the fourth home game we have had teams out play us for long periods of the game.

There are players clearly not good enough and the manager must try and correct this.

There are players where we look to the future and in my view we are just kidding ourselves.

You can clearly see things like ball retention passing to a claret shirt and first touch that we are left wanting and it isn't a bad day at the office or a one off its indemnic...we need to change our style and pursue the art of possession football until we get it right.

Further more we are not going to attract the right kind of players playing with a direct style. We did play some possession football last term particularly against Sunderland and yes we have ha wicked start in terms of drawing teams that are comfortable with the ball....but we have to start somewhere...right now the team is not too dissimilar to O'neills reign where we seen carews game regress and are we going to see the same with Benteke, because he seems like he has lost his edge from last season.

Gabby despite the good work he does, seems to sleep walk in to accepting game after game of not scoring.

There are many things that are just not working, some are and some are not....but the ones that are not are happening week in and week out.

Don't get me wrong, the wins against Arsenal and Man city were excellent results, but on the back of our 4home defeats it looks like we are just creating the odd mugging.

We clearly have to improve our performances both as a team and individually, the work off the ball yesterday was woeful particularly in the early parts of the game.

Much improvement I suspect is required.

[PaulC]

Yes ball retention this season has clearly become a big issue. We surrender possession at home far too easily. 

[Keyblade]

 

 

That's the fourth home game we have had teams out play us for long periods of the game.

 

3 of which have been against Spurs, Liverpool and City.

[abdulaziz1]

Away from home I couldn't be happier, it helps we get a result more often than not but I felt we played some really good football second half at Arsenal and Chelsea. Norwich and Hull were different, more of a battle and scrap but we got 4 points and two clean sheets.

 

But at home...I just don't see what is happening. There is little good football and no idea when he inevitably  fall behind.

 

Now even though last season we didn't win many home games, I thought there were quite a few examples of games when he actually played really well, obviously the Sunderland game but I thought we were excellent 60 minutes against Chelsea before the benteke red ruined things, 2nd half against QPR when we were brilliant going forward and first half against Liverpool.

 

We scored some excellent team goals home and away last season, this season doesn't really seem like that.

 

Don't forget with these fixtures last year we've only managed to get 3 points with -14 GD .. We only scored 5 goals in these 7 fixtures (Hull aside because we haven't play them) .. 

 

Even when our form was great .. We didn't manage to even draw against top sides other than Everton which we'll play next game ..

 

When our form was great .. We played 2 games or three then play one or two of the big boys .. And sometimes we play three before playing a big side .. 

 

This year we are playing 5 of the top sides in only 8 games .. And put in mind that Newcastle has one of the best squads + we're really bad against them .. In the last three years we collected more points against City than them ! 

[briny_ear]

A point of view from Stuart James, my favourite football journalist:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/21/premier-league-talking-points

 

 

Villa struggling to stamp authority at home

 

So Aston Villa's search for successive home Premier League wins in the same season goes on. August 2010 was the last time it happened. On the face of it there is no crime in being unable to beat Manchester City and Spurs back-to-back. But it was not so much the result against Spurs as the performance. Paul Lambert, the Villa manager, said: "I didn't think there was much in that."

 

A personal view would be that Spurs were playing within themselves while Villa, until Christian Benteke came on, looked toothless and devoid of ideas. Look at the stats: Villa had 31% possession in the first half, a figure that increased to 37% come the end. In total Villa made 309 passes, Spurs made 532. Villa were the home team. It is hard to know what their game-plan is at times at Villa Park, where they so often struggle to impose themselves on opponents (we've debated the need for a 'No10' before). From the midfield trio through to the three up front, only Fabian Delph emerged with any credit against Spurs. There is no doubt that Lambert will not be impressed that André Villas-Boas, the Spurs manager, talked for the second time this season about Villa playing "long balls".

 

Villa are not a team that bangs it aimlessly from back to front (not that AVB said they were). And there is no doubt they carry a real threat on the counter-attack. But is there another way of playing that involves keeping the ball more, especially at home? Stuart James

 

[Kwan]

Think it's fair to at least give Villa a couple runs against home opponents that aren't Liverpool, City, Spurs, or Newcastle.

 

If they're still giving up possession and countering against the likes of Cardiff or CP or Sunderland or a whole lot of other teams then you can worry.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kwan

[TRO]

 

 

That's the fourth home game we have had teams out play us for long periods of the game.

 

3 of which have been against Spurs, Liverpool and City.

I accept that our fixtures have been cruel in dealing with possession artists....but other elements like getting shots on target are not governed by the opposition...closing down is also up to us.

We have to start helping ourselves.

We have a choice ,if we want to sign players that fit a direct style rather than invest in players that are comfortable on the ball, that up to us because it's clear to me what the top half of the table teams prefer....inc Everton who never seems to whinge about lack of investment.

[TRO]

A point of view from Stuart James, my favourite football journalist:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/21/premier-league-talking-points

 

 

Villa struggling to stamp authority at home

 

So Aston Villa's search for successive home Premier League wins in the same season goes on. August 2010 was the last time it happened. On the face of it there is no crime in being unable to beat Manchester City and Spurs back-to-back. But it was not so much the result against Spurs as the performance. Paul Lambert, the Villa manager, said: "I didn't think there was much in that."

 

A personal view would be that Spurs were playing within themselves while Villa, until Christian Benteke came on, looked toothless and devoid of ideas. Look at the stats: Villa had 31% possession in the first half, a figure that increased to 37% come the end. In total Villa made 309 passes, Spurs made 532. Villa were the home team. It is hard to know what their game-plan is at times at Villa Park, where they so often struggle to impose themselves on opponents (we've debated the need for a 'No10' before). From the midfield trio through to the three up front, only Fabian Delph emerged with any credit against Spurs. There is no doubt that Lambert will not be impressed that André Villas-Boas, the Spurs manager, talked for the second time this season about Villa playing "long balls".

 

Villa are not a team that bangs it aimlessly from back to front (not that AVB said they were). And there is no doubt they carry a real threat on the counter-attack. But is there another way of playing that involves keeping the ball more, especially at home? Stuart James

Totally agree

And some of the truly exceptional wins (results)have papered over the cracks (performance)

One half of the fan base just seem to dismiss it as acceptable and deem the other half of the fan base as whingers....never grateful.

The fact that Swansea, Everton & Southampton, not to mention Albion, can move the ball with better aplomb, (with similar funds to us,)would suggest quite a few journalists have it right and one half of the fan base need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[briny_ear]

But here's a - sort of - alternative view form the same newspaper

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/20/tottenham-aston-villa-lambert-villas-boas-tactics

 

Tottenham Hotspur's buildup play disrupted by dogged Aston Villa

Paul Lambert's side lose but take the gloss off Spurs' victory, with André Villas-Boas witnessing a poor passing display

• Michael Cox

• The Guardian,  Sunday 20 October 2013 20.50 BST

The role of Aston Villa's Karim El Ahmadi, right, was more about pressurising Tottenham Hotspur's holding players rather than creating chances. Photograph: Andrew Boyers/Action Images

André Villas-Boas rarely allows a positive result to disguise a disappointing display and despite Tottenham's win at Villa Park, he will be concerned about his side's poor passing – particularly in the first half.

 

Villas-Boas puts a huge emphasis on passing. He asks his players not merely to retain the ball but also to transfer it forward quickly. He frequently uses the word "vertical" when describing his favoured style of play, and sterile possession dominance is not considered a virtue.

 

But in the early stages of this victory his players had a significant problem working the ball forward from defence. Paul Lambert deployed a strategy he has used before against higher-ranked teams, keeping a high defensive line but asking his attackers to drop back into a compact shape, essentially flooding the centre of the pitch when the opposition have possession. The role of Karim El Ahmadi, the most advanced midfielder, is more about pressuring the opposing holding players rather than attempting to create.

 

Villa stood off the Spurs centre-backs, allowing them time on the ball but pressuring heavily whenever the ball was played forward into midfield. By half-time, Tottenham's five most frequent passing combinations all involved the defenders playing the ball among themselves: Vlad Chiriches to Michael Dawson, Dawson to Chirches, Kyle Walker to Dawson, Jan Vertonghen to Chiriches, Chirches to Vertonghen. It neatly summarises Spurs' inability to play positive forward passes.

 

Aston Villa stood off Tottenham’s back four but packed the middle third of the pitch, preventing any positive forward passes from the visitors. Photograph: Graphic

 

The game was reminiscent of Villa's goalless draw with Arsenal last year – at a similar time of the year, on a similarly rain-soaked afternoon at Villa Park. On that day Villa used this strategy and Arsenal clearly missed Jack Wilshere, their one midfielder capable of taking the ball on the half-turn and evading opposition challenges. In a similar respect, Spurs could have done with Mousa Dembele, a prolific dribbler from deep central midfield zones, who started on the bench. Strangely, while Villa's strategy upset Spurs' passing game, it might have also harmed their own attacking. Lambert's side are one of the best counterattacking teams in the Premier League, particularly when they win possession in deep positions before utilising the pace of Andreas Weimann and Gabriel Agbonlahor down the flanks.

 

However, with possession often regained in advanced positions, Villa rarely had any space to break into. In these situations, Villa cross the ball frequently but this looked dangerous only once Christian Benteke replaced Libor Kozak after an hour – the Czech forward lacks Benteke's aerial prowess.

 

At 1-0 down after Andros Townsend's rather fortunate opener, Lambert moved to a 4-3-1-2 system for the second half, using Weimann behind his two strikers – still attempting to crowd out Spurs in central zones, while hoping the front trio would combine more regularly. This was a calculated gamble: Villa had an extremely strong spell after Benteke's arrival, with the full-backs charging forward to cross, but it left Villa bare down the flanks, and vulnerable to Spurs' counterattacks.

 

Whereas Townsend had found his space restricted in the first half, after the interval he increasingly had opportunities to pick up possession and run at Antonio Luna, with Kyle Walker supporting reliably. Spurs' margin of victory could have been greater. Nevertheless, Villas-Boas will be concerned that his side appeared so uncomfortable working the ball forward from the back. Perhaps Spurs would have passed more positively with Dembele's presence in midfield or if Jan Vertonghen was able to start passing sequences from his favoured centre-back position.

 

Still, this was a lesson in how to disrupt Tottenham's buildup play, and other Premier League managers might employ similar tactics.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

(Now I think it is certainly true that the method we played for the first 20 minutes or so frustrated Spurs and crowded them out in midfield and, with better skill, we might have taken a lead, which might have led to a very different game. It actually reminded me a bit of the Man C game where we spent the first half trying to contain a more skilful side and then switched to pacy counter attacking football in the second half, which forced their defenders into mistakes. Unfortunately against Spurs, we didn't get the goals; the midfield didn't contribute as much; and, as Michael Cox says, getting the fullbacks to attack the wings left us vulnerable at the back and even an out-of-sorts Spurs couldn't fail to take advantage of that.

 

So the method of playing at home against superior clubs seems to be to contain and frustrate them at first - which we are not quite good enough to do - then switch to pacy attack, which we are sometimes good enough to pull off, but not yesterday.

 

It doesn't make for very attractive or entertaining football in the first half and I don't think we have the quality of players to achieve the switch to counterattacking football with consistent success.)

Edited October 21, 2013 by briny_ear

[Cliffy Biro]

Lambert has had a fraction of the money AVB has had at Spurs and also took over a much weaker squad.

Well i thought we were talking about mon and lamberts midfield, of course spurs has a much better midfield and bigger budget but lambert has had money to spend and all i'm saying is if at this point 3 windows and at a guess 30m+  he doesnt have a decent enough midfield to compete then why does he avoid any blame?

[Kwan]

Yes, the Swansea that has 10 points?

 

Or the West Brom that has 10 points?

 

Or Everton that has only had to play Manchester City and Chelsea in the upper half of the table?

 

Wake up and smell the coffee. The team will get more points.

[TRO]

Watching us play at home is like watching us play under O Neill at home. Lack of ideas and no plan B.

Hmmm

Actually, I think I can spot one or two slight differences between our home performance under Lambo and under MON:

MON

%won: 42%

%drawn: 37%

%lost: 21%

Aggregate goal difference:- +37

Goals scored per game: 1.44

Lambert

%won: 26%

%drawn: 22%

%lost: 52%

Aggregate goal difference: -8

Goals scored per game: 1.17

Looks like a definite step or three down to me.

...sounds like who's worse Fred west or jack the RIpper.

Martin O'Neills home record was also poor, is it seems to be this has been a longstanding problem.

I suspect a club signing players that fit a direct style rather than an expansive style has a bit to do with it.

Edited October 21, 2013 by TRO

[CannockVillan]

Jees.

 

I didn't think it was that bad.  Yes we got caught out a few time (mainly in the second half) but the plan was (to some extent) working until the goal went in.  i thought we were unlucky with the goal, as teams always are when that type of goal goes in.

 

Tottenham hadn't really opened us up and Guzan only made maybe on or two decent saves in the fist half.  the one from Townsend right at the ned of the half was, to say the least, nothing short of a pice of luck that resulted in the ball falling to his feet on the dge of the box rather than harmelssly making its way past Bake to Guzan (instead of ricocheting of him straight to Townsend).

 

They were able to play with a little more confidence second half because of their first goal and as players tired they made good use of the extra space, parituclarly on the counter when they sealed the game with thier second.

 

Spurs deserved to win the game but at the end of the day they have just sold one player and spen the best part of £100m+ on their squad, bringing in how many top top players. for not much of a net spend.  If we sold Benteke for the best part of £80m and then went out and bought half a dozen £15m players we would be a much better team.

 

What did people expect?  Spurs are a real top 4 contender, more so than ManU on current evidence.  My only minor gripe was that we didn't make their keeper work as much as we should have done when we had possession but we did create some half chances here and there in the second half and we were playing some nice stuff n midfield and out wide.  However they were very compact in defense (Mourinhoesque) and it's not as simple as lobbing a ball into the box (ask Stoke). 

 

In terms of their starting 11 people need to remember that they the likes of Erikson, Chadli, Dembele, Defoe, Rose, Lennon, Sigurdsson & Lamela all out or not starting and Vertonghen played out of position at right back.  You'd think that would be a problem for a lot of teams but when you see a starting line up as strong as theirs without all those players then people need to have some perspective.

[bannedfromHandV]

hahaha classic villatalk.

 

A good start to the season prior to Spurs, a defeat later and it's time to rip up the team sheet and tactics and start all over again, effing hilarious.

 

Give it a week and a win over everton and everyone will be back to buzzing their balls off again.

 

I wish I had something better to do than read this drivel, sadly though I don't.....

[Kwan]

hahaha classic villatalk.

 

A good start to the season prior to Spurs, a defeat later and it's time to rip up the team sheet and tactics and start all over again, effing hilarious.

 

Give it a week and a win over everton and everyone will be back to buzzing their balls off again.

 

I wish I had something better to do than read this drivel, sadly though I don't.....

 

It really is a bunch of wild mood swings from game to game. Win and we're challenging for a Europe spot. Lose and we're the worst team in the league.

 

Take a step back folks. It's a long season.