San Marino v England Montenegro v England WC qualifiers

[Morpheus]

 

That's utter bullshit though. It's an easy argument for the FA (and therefore Trevor Brooking) to make in order to gloss over their failures as an organisation.  The Premier League has a comparable number of foreign players as both Serie A and La Liga do.  Italy and Spain have won the last four major tournaments that England have appeared in. 

 

The FA are the people who decided to spend a billion pounds on a new stadium rather than invest it in the grass roots of the game.  The much cited newspaper article shows the real cause of the problem. England produces as many professionals as Spain or Italy or Germany or France, but because of a total failure to teach them them game properly when they are kids the number of "world class" players we produce is embarrassing compared to countries with similar populations and resources.  Just look at the strength in depth Spain has, did they just get lucky with so many naturally talented players being born at the same time or is it more to do with the fact that they invested in coaching to the point where almost every team at every level of the game has a fully qualified coach?  

 

The big hope here is St Georges Park. There was a bit of a fanfare when it opened last year but we have probably got to wait at least a decade until it starts producing results, and that's assuming we don't **** things up in the meantime. Until then we are in limbo. 

I tend to think that great national teams are born out of several world class players arriving at the same time rather than anything to do with coaching. If you can coach a player to become world class then every national team would have them so for me the argument doesn't stack up that England's lack of success is due to poor coaching. As i stated previously was Endland's 1990 World Cup team good because they received excellent coaching at grass root level. No they were a good team because a batch of World Class players arrived at the same time.

 

Yes, but that was a quarter of a century ago.  Things change.  It's like the people who think just because Villa won the league with 14 players in 1981 there is no reason that it cannot be done today.  Back then everybody was using 14-18 players a season, these days the most successful teams have 25 internationals in their squad.  You need to keep up in order to remain competitive and the sides who went out and invested heavily in coaching in the 90s and 00s are reaping the rewards now.  

If we sit around waiting for another group like Robson, Lineker, Gascoigne Hoddle & Waddle to turn up at the same time then we might be waiting quite some time.  You have to get everybody to a high level and the special players will look after themselves.  We can't keep going into competitions with one good player in every position because we fall down every time there is an injury, a suspension or a loss of form.  We need strength in depth and the best way to get that is to follow the example of the countries who have it.  They aren't keeping any secrets from us are they? 

Unfortunately coaching kids to death won't actually produce world class players. The natural ability has to be there in the first place and then built on. England's 1966 team had world class players moulded into a team as did the 1990 team and they did well because of it.

 

If you look at all the recent successful national teams who have had sustainable success. They have all had world class players coming through at the same time but they had to wait. France had an exceptional group of players in one cycle and bore success from that. They are now less successful due to those players being no longer available. Are you saying that since the retirement of Zidane french coaching of their youngsters has dropped in quality? Of course it hasn't! Its just that they no longer have world class players coming through and no amount of coaching good players will transform them into world class players.

 

Its not that England have poor coaches its more to do with not having enough quality and unfortunately like many other countries England will have to wait until the next batch of quality to come through.

[Stevo985]

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

[The_Rev]

Unfortunately coaching kids to death won't actually produce world class players. The natural ability has to be there in the first place and then built on. England's 1966 team had world class players moulded into a team as did the 1990 team and they did well because of it.

 

Yet all the evidence points to the fact that it does.  Barcelona beat Levante 4-0 just before Christmas, Dani Alves went off injured after about ten minutes and they brought on a player called Martin Montoya.   It was a notable substitution because at that point all eleven Barcelona players on the pitch had came through the Barcelona academy.   Ajax keep producing world class talent.  Spain have immense strength in depth. Germany have immense strength in depth.  Players like Leo Messi are born great but the players that surround them all benefit from a proper education as youngsters.  

[Morpheus]

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

Point out where i've said 'coaching at a young age has no effect on talent?'

 

If you go back through my posts i am clearly saying that no amount of coaching will make a decent player into a world class player. If that was the case then all national teams would have world class players.

[Stevo985]

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

Point out where i've said 'coaching at a young age has no effect on talent?'

 

If you go back through my posts i am clearly saying that no amount of coaching will make a decent player into a world class player. If that was the case then all national teams would have world class players.

Well, you've kind of just said it in your very next sentence.

How do you know that if, I dunno, Tom Cleverly had come through Barca's academy as opposed to whatever academy he came through over here he wouldn't be a damn sight better than he is now?

Are you saying that would have made no difference? Because he's only a decent player he could never be coached to be better than that?

[coda]

Only on VT would an England match thread develop into a nature vs nurture debate. 

[Morpheus]

Unfortunately coaching kids to death won't actually produce world class players. The natural ability has to be there in the first place and then built on. England's 1966 team had world class players moulded into a team as did the 1990 team and they did well because of it.

 

Yet all the evidence points to the fact that it does.  Barcelona beat Levante 4-0 just before Christmas, Dani Alves went off injured after about ten minutes and they brought on a player called Martin Montoya.   It was a notable substitution because at that point all eleven Barcelona players on the pitch had came through the Barcelona academy.   Ajax keep producing world class talent.  Spain have immense strength in depth. Germany have immense strength in depth.  Players like Leo Messi are born great but the players that surround them all benefit from a proper education as youngsters.  

I see you have excluded the examples i have used such as France. Very convenient that.

 

All evidence does not point to coaching producing world class players. There is a marked difference in having strength in depth and having world class players. If good coaching equated to world class players then most national teams would have them.

[Stevo985]

 

If good coaching equated to world class players then most national teams would have them.

 

Why?

[The_Rev]

I've got nothing more to add Morpheus.  You are perfectly entitled to your wrong opinion. 

[Morpheus]

 

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

Point out where i've said 'coaching at a young age has no effect on talent?'

 

If you go back through my posts i am clearly saying that no amount of coaching will make a decent player into a world class player. If that was the case then all national teams would have world class players.

Well, you've kind of just said it in your very next sentence.

How do you know that if, I dunno, Tom Cleverly had come through Barca's academy as opposed to whatever academy he came through over here he wouldn't be a damn sight better than he is now?

Are you saying that would have made no difference? Because he's only a decent player he could never be coached to be better than that?

So what your now saying is this. Cleverly may have been a better player if he had been coached through the Barca academy rather than through an academy overseen by arguably the best manager of young talent the world has seen? I sincerely hope your not saying that?

 

Cleverly has come through one of the best youth academies and yet he is no better than decent so there endith the debate!

[Morpheus]

I've got nothing more to add Morpheus.  You are perfectly entitled to your wrong opinion. 

As are you mate.

[Stevo985]

 

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

Point out where i've said 'coaching at a young age has no effect on talent?'

 

If you go back through my posts i am clearly saying that no amount of coaching will make a decent player into a world class player. If that was the case then all national teams would have world class players.

Well, you've kind of just said it in your very next sentence.

How do you know that if, I dunno, Tom Cleverly had come through Barca's academy as opposed to whatever academy he came through over here he wouldn't be a damn sight better than he is now?

Are you saying that would have made no difference? Because he's only a decent player he could never be coached to be better than that?

So what your now saying is this. Cleverly may have been a better player if he had been coached through the Barca academy rather than through an academy overseen by arguably the best manager of young talent the world has seen? I sincerely hope your not saying that?

 

Cleverly has come through one of the best youth academies and yet he is no better than decent so there endith the debate!

 

Cleverly was a name I pulled out off the top of my head. That wasn't the point.

If you want a different example, let's go for Michael Carrick, or Scott Parker, or Leon Osman.

Are you saying if they'd gone through Ajax or Barca's youth system they'd be not better than they are now?

There's no chance that being coached the same way that Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pique etc etc could have made them any better?

[Mantis]

Football is constantly evolving. Why do people think O'Neill for example was successful with Leicester in the 90s but is doing a dismal job with Sunderland now? Football evolved but he didn't. Same goes for England.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Mantis

[Dr_Pangloss]

England are just an average national side with no chance of winning anything for a rather long time.

[mikeyp102]

I've said it before, the England job should've been given to Arsene wenger, he then should've been given free reign with the academies from top to bottom. In 5 yrs time we would then have more technical players coming through

[The_Rev]

That's assuming Wenger would have wanted the job of course.  It's not just as simple as you seem to think. 

[mikeyp102]

That's assuming Wenger would have wanted the job of course. It's not just as simple as you seem to think.

I'm not an idiot I know that it's not simple, it's just my thoughts on the matter. And as I'm far aware the fa never even spoke to wenger about the role.

[Jimzk5]

I've said it before, the England job should've been given to Arsene wenger, he then should've been given free reign with the academies from top to bottom. In 5 yrs time we would then have more technical players coming through

Disagree on the basis that wenger has had free reign over the arsenal academy for 16 years and they've produced what, one player with superb technique and passing ability in wilshire

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

But you're assuming coaching at a young age has no effect on talent.

 

You're basically just relying on pure, raw footballing talent.

 

Who's to say that better coaching couldn't turn good players into excellent players?

It's not about turning any average kid into a world beater.

It's about turning those kids who will turn out to be good players into kids who will turn out to be great players.

Point out where i've said 'coaching at a young age has no effect on talent?'

 

If you go back through my posts i am clearly saying that no amount of coaching will make a decent player into a world class player. If that was the case then all national teams would have world class players.

 

Well, you've kind of just said it in your very next sentence.

How do you know that if, I dunno, Tom Cleverly had come through Barca's academy as opposed to whatever academy he came through over here he wouldn't be a damn sight better than he is now?

Are you saying that would have made no difference? Because he's only a decent player he could never be coached to be better than that?

 

So what your now saying is this. Cleverly may have been a better player if he had been coached through the Barca academy rather than through an academy overseen by arguably the best manager of young talent the world has seen? I sincerely hope your not saying that?

 

Cleverly has come through one of the best youth academies and yet he is no better than decent so there endith the debate!

 

Cleverly was a name I pulled out off the top of my head. That wasn't the point.

If you want a different example, let's go for Michael Carrick, or Scott Parker, or Leon Osman.

Are you saying if they'd gone through Ajax or Barca's youth system they'd be not better than they are now?

There's no chance that being coached the same way that Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pique etc etc could have made them any better?

Cleverly is exactly the point i'm trying to make. He has been through the Man U coaching system and has become a decent player but not world class. The very same with Carrick. The same principle actually applies to Parker and Osman who are good players but no amount of coaching is going to make them into world class. They just don't have anywhere near the same ability as Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. 

 

Take Ronaldo for instance. It was the Man U players who practically begged Ferguson to sign him after just one half of football against him. They recognised that he was a special talent and Man U then built on that.

 

Go right back to George Best. Learnt his skills on the back streets of Belfast and was already a brilliant footballer before he went to Man U. He certainly wasn't coached into being world class. The ability was already there.

 

Pele honed his skills without the use of a football.

 

I think there's actually a case for too much coaching nowadays with raw talent and flair actually being coached out of young players and making them into robots that must fit a particular system. Its a particular theory of mine which has left a dearth of flair players in today's football. 

Edited March 29, 2013 by Morpheus

[Morpheus]

Football is constantly evolving. Why do people think O'Neill for example was successful with Leicester in the 90s but is doing a dismal job with Sunderland now? Football evolved but he didn't. Same goes for England.

It doesn't necessarily follow that because a manager is successful with one club he will be a success with another. Its got nothing to do with football evolving. If that was the case then you deem O'Neill's tenure with us as unsuccessful? Certainly he did a better job with us than with Sunderland which blows your evoling theory right out of the water.