All-Purpose Religion Thread

[mjmooney]

norton65ca (do you have another name? It's getting tedious typing that) - I disagree that the Bible is 'a crock of shit' or 'a fraud'.

I recognise the emotion - I felt it too at the age of 12, when I suddenly realised that schools and parents had been feeding me the Bible as if it were all true. It's the anger of the apostate. But I don't believe that the Bible stories were assembled as part of a gigantic conspiracy - although they were arguably later used that way by some religious leaders.

The problem lies in the way it came to be regarded as 'Holy writ'. It's actually an anthology, and a brilliant piece of literature. A great collection of folk tales, creation myths, oral history, political propaganda, poetry, moral guide and folk wisdom. I love it, actually. For the ancient historian, the student of English and European literature, the psychologist, etc. it's worth a lifetime's study.

But it isn't 'true', and anybody who tries to construct a philosophy around the assumption that it is, is missing every point under the sun.

[chrisp65]

**** the Salvation Army. My mum does homecare in NZ. The Sallies won the contract off the government several years ago and the workers have had no payrise in 3 years and the wage is just above minimum and the Sallies are **** creaming it off the no challenge contract. words removed!

What a rubbish argument anyway. Your trying to advocate debate about religion and falling into the trap that if people believe in hocus pocus it shouldn't be challenged because they do good things. Do you think charitable religious groups don't proselytise?

I'm not sure you read it all? Part of the deal was that the Sal Army would try and get a few interested in God. I certainly wouldn't fall into a trap of not challenging the religious - they most certainly should be challenged.

But it's a real world dilemma you haven't answered. Do we not do the good charitable work, or do we accept a religious group doing it?

Real life, everyday life is not about absolutes. My town currently has a patch of land for which there are three plans. Allotments and drop in centre. Supermarket extension. Nothing.

Public opinion is such that everybody wants 'something' to be done with it. But don't like the supermarket plan and voice concerns about the God Squad. But no none religious volunteer group is willing to step up. So it is a real dilemma, the only people trying to contribute in a positive way in my area is a religious group. As it happens it isn't the Sallies, in reality it's the United Reformers.

At present, it loos like the land will go undeveloped. But atleast that'll give the great unwashed somewhere to drink white lightning and burn stuff.

I find that a bit sad.

[JulieB]

Really? So the Hebrew didn't use the word "yôm" which can only be translated as what we now recognise as a 24 hour period? It doesn't use any of the Hebrew words which could mean longer periods of time and "yôm" is used consistently throughout the bibile to mean a night and a day.

As A Religious Encyclopaedia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: “The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each"

It's like me saying... in my grandmother's DAY ........ I'm not speaking about a 24 hour period at all am I?

It's not like that in any way. Hebrew contains different words for such periods of time. Just because the English word "day" has two meanings doe not mean that the Hebrew word translated as "day" has the same multiple meanings.

If what you're saying is true then WHY does Genesis 2:4 state :- "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

The Hebrew word Yom is used in this text just the same as in previous Genesis texts. However in this verse "the six days" have now been rolled up into ONE creative " day"

The ONLY explanation is that the Hebrew word Yom can mean a 12 hour day, a 24 hour day or in fact a indeterminate length of time.

Richard Deem explain it as follows:-

Genesis Clearly Teaches that the Days Were Not 24 Hours

"The day-age (progressive) creation account is non-literal and contradicts the clear teaching of Genesis." I hear or see this complaint quite often, although the statement is incorrect regarding both accusations. I take all of the biblical creation accounts literally. Nothing is symbolic. The Hebrew word yom has three literal meanings - a 12-hour period of time (sunrise to sunset), a 24-hour period of time from sunset to sunset (the Hebrew day), and an indefinite period of time. The day-age interpretation of Genesis does not require the use of symbolism to explain the creation account.

The proper interpretation - from Genesis

A simple way to determine if the days are 12 hours, 24 hours or an indefinite period of time is to examine each of the days and see what the Bible says about the time it took for those days to happen. We will examine each day and see if Genesis indicates which interpretation is correct. In this page, we will consider the text of Genesis only and not rely upon any scientific information, about which we can not be absolutely sure of its accuracy.

12-hour days?

Let's look at the first definition of yom - the 12-hour period (from sunrise to sunset). A very casual glance at the text shows that yom could not be referring to daylight only. On the first day, Genesis 1:5 states that there was both daylight and night.2 We can eliminate the "daylight" definition of yom as being consistent with the Genesis text. The days of Genesis must have been longer than 12 hours.

24-hours days - Day 1

Next, let's examine the Genesis days to see if they fit the 24-hour interpretation. Many things happen n the first day. God created the entire universe, including the earth. God also began the period of daylight and night on the earth. Although science tells us that these events took much more than 24 hours, there is nothing in the biblical text that would clearly indicate that the day could not be 24 hours long.3 The 24-hour interpretation passes the test for the first day.

24-hours days - Day 2

On the second day, God separated the waters above the earth from those on the surface of the earth.4 Since there is no timetable listed for this period of time, it could be 24 hours in length. The 24-hour interpretation passes the test for the second day.

24-hours days - Day 3

On the third day, God formed the land out of the seas. There is no time frame given for the formation of the land and seas. Some time after the land was formed, God created the plants:

Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth"; and it was so. (Genesis 1:11)

And the earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:12)

The text clearly states that the earth "sprouted" the plants (the Hebrew word deshe,5 Strong's #H1877, usually refers to grasses). The Hebrew word dasha,6 (Strong's #H1876) indicates that the plants grew from either seeds or small seedlings in order to have "sprouted." In addition, these plants produced seeds. The Hebrew word here is zera (Strong's #H2233), which is most often translated "descendants." This makes matters very difficult for the 24-hour interpretation. Not only do the plants sprout and grow to maturity, but produce seed or descendants. There are no plants capable of doing this within a 24-hour period of time. Things actually get worse for this interpretation. Genesis 1:12 clearly states that God allowed the earth to bring forth trees that bore fruit. The process by which the earth brings forth trees to the point of bearing fruit takes several years, at minimum. God did not create the trees already bearing fruit. The text states clearly that He allowed the earth to accomplish the process of fruit bearing through natural means. Because the process of the third day requires a minimum period of time of more than 24 hours, the Genesis text for the third day clearly falsifies the interpretation that the days of Genesis one are 24-hour periods of time.

24-hours days - Day 6

Day 6 is also a problem for the 24-hour interpretation. During this day, God planted a garden in Eden, and caused the garden to sprout and grow. Then God brought all the birds, cattle and wild animals to Adam to name. God put Adam to sleep, took a part of him and formed Eve (Genesis 2:21-22). Adam's response to Eve's creation was "at last," indicating that he thought the day was very long indeed.

We are left with only one interpretation for the days of Genesis one. The literal, clearly indicated, meaning of yom for Genesis one must be an unspecified, long period of time. This is why I believe that the day-age Genesis one interpretation is the only biblically sound interpretation for the creation of the world and life on it.

A compelling example of how Creationists are not interpreting the Bible correctly is the fact that during the sixth "day" Adam bemoaned the loneliness of being on his own without a mate, until God created Eve by stating "This is at last"........ clearly indicates that what Moses was putting across when he wrote the Genesis account was that the sixth day spanned quite some considerable length of time and certainly NOT 24 hours.

[mjmooney]

The church does do some good things.

Remember the old saying? - 'God works in mysterious ways......' Well, He certainly is doing in Bradford, West Yorkshire, England. A group of Christian business people, church representatives and evangelists have set-up the 'Bradford Christian Pub Consortium.'

The B.C.P.C. now occupy 'The Cock & Bottle,' on Barkerend Road, one of the most famous pubs in Bradford, it's just up the road from the Cathedral and is a splendid example of an unspoilt Victorian pub, lots of little rooms all with original fittings and offering lots of atmosphere. To say the least, the pub has had a very chequered past, but who'd have believed it would become a Christian Pub?

This venture has created an incredible amount of interest from all corners of the world. The B.B.C. have been there with their cameras, along with journalists, photographers, radio broadcasters and so on. Whilst I was there a photographer turned up from a Norwegian newspaper. It has certainly put Bradford on the international map.

I visited the pub and had a chat (and a pint) with The Landlord, The Reverend, and the Parish Evangelist.

Malcolm Willis, the friendliest of landlords, said 'Folk have been in touch and wished us well and offered prayers. Some people can't believe it when they come in here and see a vicar behind the bar pulling pints, they think it is a fancy dress party!' Hundreds of people had visited the pub in its opening weekend for a pint, a chat, to share problems and just to be supportive. It must have been a busy weekend because they had sold-out of lager by the time I got there! Malcolm explained that he had to walk one man off the premises that had overindulged, it was no problem at all, he was led to a waiting Taxi and sent home.

The Cock & Bottle is a listed building and not even the name can be changed, there was talk of renaming it 'The Kings Arms' or 'The Lamb & Anchor'.

The enterprising Reverend Robin Gamble, works for the diocese of Bradford, a vast area stretching from Pudsey to Sedbergh almost in The Lake District. He said the response has been very positive. It's been a hectic time with interviews, 'phone calls and photo' sessions with people from Belgium, Japan, South Africa and Australia to name but a few. The official opening took place on Sunday 13th June with Bishop David, The Bishop of Bradford.

The consortium have this to say about their venture:

First and foremost we want to run a really good 'local' with high standards, warmth and friendliness, a Christian welcome and hospitality, care and compassion. Counselling, prayer and ministry will be available. Christian invitation events, enquirers’ groups and teaching courses will all be happening along with a full range of community activities such as quiz nights and music nights.

Evangelism, social concern, ministry and prayer at the heart of the local community.

Secondly, ours will in effect be a 'theme pub' serving the wider area of Bradford generally and the inner-city in particular. We will offer a superb venue with facilities for meetings, conferences and functions. Churches will be able to stage their own activities, or simply make use of the events we will ourselves be organising such as worship and teaching programmes, men's and women’s nights, Christian supper parties, alcohol-free youth nights, multi-media evangelistic presentations etc.

It was realised that some controversy would occur regarding Christians and alcohol:

There are clearly many doubts about the whole idea of Christians getting involved in this area. We ourselves have agonised long and hard over some of these issues and over the potential things that could go wrong.

Despite these reservations however, after much prayer, we feel called to be where the needy people really are.

Jesus himself did much of his best work in worldly and non-religious settings, mixing with publicans, revellers, tax collectors and on occasions prostitutes.

Furthermore, we are aware of the fact that the Christian Church in inner Bradford is in a process of retreat and decline; we feel this is one way of being the Church in a new and missionary way. We want to run our Christian Pub in the inner-city, where the Church is often at its weakest and the needs are at their greatest.

Herbert Harrison, a 'man of the cloth' from New Zealand has this view:

I have a strong belief that the church has to take its message out to where the people congregate rather than wait Sunday by Sunday for them to come to the church.

Society has changed. The hours of trading (in this country anyway) have changed dramatically in the last decade - yet the Church continues in its same old way and, in many cases, makes no effort to re-mould its presence in the community to suit the community it is supposed to serve. I have spoken several times on this theme to both the Laity and the Clergy, but too many of them do not want to be jolted out of their little niche. Good on the Vicar.....and his Parish Council for seeing that needs are met in a way more appropriate to the times.

'All it needs is for people to be infected with the idea that this is a good and holy work of the Lord.' Mystery caller.

So, if you get the chance, pay a visit to the Cock & Bottle, it may just be the tonic you're looking for!

It's a decent boozer with well-kept ale, too.

Link

[Chindie]

And yet evangelism is at the heart of saving said pub and, as such, the good is tainted by an evil.

[mjmooney]

And yet evangelism is at the heart of saving said pub and, as such, the good is tainted by an evil.

Nice twist on the temperance viewpoint.

[norton65ca]

norton65ca (do you have another name? It's getting tedious typing that) - I/ snip quote]

you can call me Gary, because that is my name.

[chrisp65]

And yet evangelism is at the heart of saving said pub and, as such, the good is tainted by an evil.

Nice twist on the temperance viewpoint.

I've been to a Methodist fund raiser where they raffled a bottle of port.

Gambling for booze in a Methodist Church. Things have clearly moved on.

[snowychap]

Richard Deem explain it as follows:-

Linking to the source of your quotes might assist those wishing to engage with your posts; it may also help display a common courtesy to those whose words you wish to use.

[villaajax]

Chelsea win - there is no God.

[chrisp65]

Chelsea win - there is no God.

Villa stayed up, AM sacked

I'd suggest the jury is still out.

[villaajax]

Chelsea win - there is no God.

Villa stayed up, AM sacked

I'd suggest the jury is still out.

Well played.

[legov]

norton65ca (do you have another name? It's getting tedious typing that) - I disagree that the Bible is 'a crock of shit' or 'a fraud'.

I recognise the emotion - I felt it too at the age of 12, when I suddenly realised that schools and parents had been feeding me the Bible as if it were all true. It's the anger of the apostate. But I don't believe that the Bible stories were assembled as part of a gigantic conspiracy - although they were arguably later used that way by some religious leaders.

The problem lies in the way it came to be regarded as 'Holy writ'. It's actually an anthology, and a brilliant piece of literature. A great collection of folk tales, creation myths, oral history, political propaganda, poetry, moral guide and folk wisdom. I love it, actually. For the ancient historian, the student of English and European literature, the psychologist, etc. it's worth a lifetime's study.

But it isn't 'true', and anybody who tries to construct a philosophy around the assumption that it is, is missing every point under the sun.

This

[Brumerican]

[limpid]

Really? So the Hebrew didn't use the word "yôm" which can only be translated as what we now recognise as a 24 hour period? It doesn't use any of the Hebrew words which could mean longer periods of time and "yôm" is used consistently throughout the bibile to mean a night and a day.

As A Religious Encyclopaedia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: “The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each"

It's like me saying... in my grandmother's DAY ........ I'm not speaking about a 24 hour period at all am I?

It's not like that in any way. Hebrew contains different words for such periods of time. Just because the English word "day" has two meanings doe not mean that the Hebrew word translated as "day" has the same multiple meanings.

Please sort out your quoting, I did not quote from "A Religious Encyclopaedia".

If what you're saying is true then WHY does Genesis 2:4 state :- "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

The Hebrew word Yom is used in this text just the same as in previous Genesis texts. However in this verse "the six days" have now been rolled up into ONE creative " day"

Because according to Genesis, Earth and heaven were made on the first day. That's one day. You actually quoted this in the bit you cut and pasted.

Richard Deem explain it as follows:-

Who?

Genesis Clearly Teaches that the Days Were Not 24 Hours

snip

We are left with only one interpretation for the days of Genesis one. The literal, clearly indicated, meaning of yom for Genesis one must be an unspecified, long period of time. This is why I believe that the day-age Genesis one interpretation is the only biblically sound interpretation for the creation of the world and life on it.

There is another much more compelling interpretation overlooked by the author. That this is all simply a stone age story.

[blandy]

....religious people, if they just came out and said "you know what, I don't like the idea that life is meaningless, so I'm hoping it's not and that this Christianity stuff is right" then I'd just be all "well, whatever, your choice" but instead they act like there is actual evidence backing up their beliefs, that it's not just a whim, that religion is actually a conclusion you can logically come to. It's not. It's faith, and people take it on faith because they don't like the alternative, and you know what, I'm fine with that, if only people were willing to admit it.

That's pretty much it for me too. People who "find" God, find one because they want to and need to, or else they have been taught there is one and so believe there is one. There's no evidence there is one, there's no rational or scientific explanation or proof or evidence there is one at all. Arguing there is, is ridiculous. Arguing that an old book is any kind of proof of any deity is equally ridiculous. At best it's evidence that some other people a long time ago thought there was a God, too, and that those people didn't have the benefit of knowledge and understanding that we have 2000 years later, as a result of the accumulated work and investigation and science in the 2 millennia since the book was started.

[JulieB]

Because according to Genesis, Earth and heaven were made on the first day. That's one day. You actually quoted this in the bit you cut and pasted.

I disagree Simon and here's why...

Firstly Genesis 1 V 1 states that "In the beginning God created the heavens & the Earth" - Therefore the Earth & the Universe could have been billions of years old before Jehovah created anything on the formless waste that was the Earth. The 1st day of Creation involving the Earth began once God turned his attention to it.

Secondly Genesis 2: 4 is a summation of all of the acts of creation. Read the proceeding verses of Chapter 2 leading up to verse 4.

(Genesis 2:1-4) . . .Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making. 4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

Several "days of creation" or "periods of creation" are in Chapter 2 verse 4 rolled up into ONE day as I said before.

Moses wrote Genesis. He was not some stone age migrant - he was brought up in the Royal house of Egypt as a relative of Pharoah.... as the Bible records....

Acts 7:21, 22 . . .the daughter of Phar′aoh picked him up and brought him up as her own son. 22 Consequently Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. In fact, he was powerful in his words and deeds

.

In other words he was a well educated, intelligent man.

When he wrote about the creative "days" going back to my previous post. Taking one example - The 6th creative day - it is clear that Moses was stressing that this happened over some considerable length of time and couldn't possibly have happened over a 24 hour period.

Adam was created towards the end of that "day" after God had created the domestic animals and land creatures that moved upon the Earth - he also planted a garden for him to live in. He then brought all the animals to Adam to have him observe their behaviour to name each one. At which point Adam would have seen that almost all of creation needed a mate to produce offspring. How long would it have taken for Adam to individually name each creature?

Again during that same 6th Day of creation - God let him fall into a deep sleep & took some of Adam's DNA via a rib bone and created the woman be a companion... Eve.

Moses recorded Adam's reaction on awakening to find this woman Eve.

(Genesis 2:23, 24 .... Then the man said:

“This is at last ]bone of my bones

And flesh of my flesh.

This one will be called Woman,

Because from man this one was taken.”

24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh"

If the Bible writer had meant that this all happened in a matter of hours or minutes. Why state THIS IS AT LAST?

Once all these matters had been concluded and God had blessed Adam & Eve and told them to be fruitful and have in subjection the whole Earth was the 6th Creative day concluded as had all the rest of the days with the words recorded at Genesis 1:31

 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day. . .

Now go back to Genesis Chapter 2 verse 3...

"And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making"

The seventh day of creation hasn't yet finished - the tense is present ....

"because on it he has been resting"......

It is a sabbath day. Just like the Hebrews were asked under the Mosaic law to have a day of rest. Yes that was a mini re -enaction of the week of the creation but it's 24 hour divisions of the creative working week was not a literal representaion of the actual days of creation.

No where in the Bible does it state that the 7th Creative day of rest has finished... so how can the word Yom in the context Moses wrote Genesis mean a 24hour period?

4000 years later the apostle Paul scripted the book of Hebrews and at Chapter 4 verses 1-10 he indicated that God’s rest day was still continuing in his generation.......thousands of years after the seventh-day rest period began.

This makes it evident that each creative day, or work period, was at least thousands of years in length.

On the part about quoting....

I didn't mean to state that you had quoted from this book but what I have explained above (NOT COPIED & PASTED!) is why

The Religious Encyclopaedia (Vol. I, p. 613) observes:

“The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.”—Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.

[villaajax]

And don't forget, Austin 3:16 says "I just whipped your ass!"

[regular_john]

So...God's just chillaxin?

[limpid]

Because according to Genesis, Earth and heaven were made on the first day. That's one day. You actually quoted this in the bit you cut and pasted.

I disagree Simon and here's why...

Firstly Genesis 1 V 1 states that "In the beginning God created the heavens & the Earth" - Therefore the Earth & the Universe could have been billions of years old before Jehovah created anything on the formless waste that was the Earth. The 1st day of Creation involving the Earth began once God turned his attention to it.

So why did you quote this in defence of your point on the last page?

24-hours days - Day 1

Next, let's examine the Genesis days to see if they fit the 24-hour interpretation. Many things happen n the first day. God created the entire universe, including the earth. God also began the period of daylight and night on the earth. Although science tells us that these events took much more than 24 hours, there is nothing in the biblical text that would clearly indicate that the day could not be 24 hours long.3 The 24-hour interpretation passes the test for the first day.

This is from some text that you cut and pasted as proof of your argument. Why are you moving the goal posts? I can only respond to what you write.