bickster Posted August 2, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 2, 2012 Might have to apply to start one of these free schools myself and have utter bollocks taught as a subject, then when turned down, claim they can't as there is already a precident ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 2, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted August 2, 2012 Why shouldn't they? Because they assume that because I didn't say no, I said yes. The principle of the thing is shocking. My body is mine. I will decide what happens to it. Not anyone else, even after I am gone. It's fundamentally different to the child being denied a blood transfusion. If an adult wants to roll the dice and refuse a transfusion, they're fools but their choice, so be it. A child is unlikely to be able to make that decision knowing the consequences. It's down to the individual being able to make a considered choice. The child is either unable, or incapable of doing that, to deny it a life is evil. If I choose to not donate my property, that is my call. The state deciding that me not saying no is me saying yes, is a different and wholly wrong matter. The individual is master of his fate, and in the event that the individual is unable to make a considered choice, the right thing is to maintain life and give then the chance to be masters of their own fate. Do you think euthanasia is morally right if the patient is senile/comatose, Chindie? Only if the sufferer gave express considered permission that they would like to die rather than linger on in such a condition. If they hadn't, I believe the morally right decision would be to maintain their life, such that it is. If by comatose you actually mean on life support with no hope of recovery, living only because machines keep them alive and completely unaware of anything (the question therefore being would you endorse switching the machine off), then yes, I would see that as morally acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Out of curiosity, would you be ok with an opt out system transplant if you needed it, or would you wait until an opt in transplant organ became available? Anyway, that particular diversion is in danger of going well and truly off topic. I don't think the question works as there wouldn't be two organ donor systems running in parallel. As I said in the thread I linked, I currently opt in but under a system of presumed consent I'd be opting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 3, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2012 Might have to apply to start one of these free schools myself and have utter bollocks taught as a subject, then when turned down, claim they can't as there is already a precident ;-)Where's that "Like" button? My thoughts exactly. Anybody see that programme on the Amish last night? Quite touching in a way, and oddly, I can sort of see where they're coming from. Still don't like what they are doing to their kids though, even though they would argue that said kids are in a better place than many in the "outside world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Have seen documentrys before about Amiss people. They are trapped in the 1800s and refuse to come out.As far as their kids go, its just like any other cult.They get that particular religion rammed down their throat and dont know anything else.Its a shame cause you should be allowed to make up your owne mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I thought the Amish let their children have a year of "freedom" before deciding whether to rejoin the clan and grow a nice neckbeard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I thought the Amish let their children have a year of "freedom" before deciding whether to rejoin the clan and grow a nice neckbeard. I must admit I am not up to date with the Amish rules but the documentary that I watched did`nt mention anything like that,in fact in the documentary it said that if they leave then they are barred from any contact with their family.Apparently they only know the Amish way of life so I don`t know how that year of freedom would fit in ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I thought the Amish let their children have a year of "freedom" before deciding whether to rejoin the clan and grow a nice neckbeard. I must admit I am not up to date with the Amish rules but the documentary that I watched did`nt mention anything like that,in fact in the documentary it said that if they leave then they are barred from any contact with their family.Apparently they only know the Amish way of life so I don`t know how that year of freedom would fit in ?The one I watched saw them join the outside world as a teen, if they wanted to experience it. They were allowed as long as they liked but if they re-joined the Amish they were there for good. If they left again they were excommunicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 3, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2012 The couple in last night's programme were breaking the rules by letting the cameras in - risk of excommunication. They also had social contact with members who had already been excommunicated (also against the rules). They were strange, but did have a certain integrity. The guy made the interesting comment that: "It's a big mistake to think you can find happiness by adopting a particular lifestyle - whether it's that of the outside world OR that of the Amish". Unfortunately, he spoiled it with the inevitable: "The only way to find happiness is through Jesus Christ". Which is where we part company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 It's called Rumspringa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 It's called Rumspringa I looked it up and I find it really hard to believe that TEENAGERS can be let out in the world of girls,sex,drugs,night life etc,etc,etc and choose to go back to living in the year 1800. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Yeah they call it rumspringa where the teenagers get to go and try out western lifestyles before they commit to Armish. If they decide not to come back their families disown them from the community. Most of them find the outside world an alien place and far too crazy to live in anyway so the majority return to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Sorry, I took an age to write my post as I was watching the rowing. By the time I pressed enter the discussion had moved on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted August 8, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 8, 2012 Here's as good a place as any I suppose :cool: As I've said before. Perceptions outside Ireland will probably take a long time to change, but the reality inside the country is that we're not the Holy Joes that we used to be or that most others probably still think we are. Republic of Ireland abandoning religion faster than almost every other country The Republic of Ireland is abandoning religion faster than almost every other country worldwide, a massive global survey on faith reveals. Only Vietnam has seen a bigger drop in people declaring themselves to be religious over the past seven years, a period when the Catholic Church in Ireland has been rocked by sex-abuse scandals and a crisis of leadership. Red C interviewed more than 51,000 people worldwide, including just over 1,000 people in the Republic. An overwhelming 69% of Irish people declared themselves to be "a religious person" in the last survey conducted in 2005, but this has now plummeted to 47%. Last night the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said the results of the global index required "closer critical reading" but he acknowledged that it highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic faith in a changing Ireland. "The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members," he said last night. There was a need for strong ongoing education in the faith, he said, with a growing need for adult religious education to stop people drifting from the faith as they got older. Meanwhile, a spokesman for the Catholic Communications Office said faith was not a "numbers game". And it said the latest survey contrasted sharply with last year's census in the Republic, which found that 84% described themselves as Catholic, and just 5% said they had no religion. But according to the latest research, the Republic is now in the top 10 for the number of people declaring themselves to be "a convinced atheist". Although this is still a minority group at 10%, it puts the country high in the global league table, and is a stark rise from 3% seven years ago. The poll asked people, irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist. However, the nature of the question may have affected the results -- something the pollsters themselves admit. They said that while there had been a 9% drop globally in the number describing themselves as "religious", most people still felt part of the faith they grew up in. However, it will still come as a blow to the Catholic Church in Ireland, and is the second survey in recent months to show massive alienation among the population. A survey in February by market research group Amarach found the public at odds with the church hierarchy on a range of issues, including women clergy and married priests. That survey, which questioned more than 1,000 Irish Catholics, found that 77% believed women should be ordained. Nine out of 10 said priests should be able to marry. It also revealed just 35% went to church on a weekly basis. However nothing has been done to address the crisis in the church in the six months since the Amarach survey was carried out. The Catholic Communications Office was asked what actions had been taken by the bishops since the survey was published. But a spokesman declined to comment, saying the study had been commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests, a group of 800 clerics who are critical of the hierarchy. Asked about the new Red C poll, the spokesman queried the language used by the poll. "The word 'religious', if left unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire -- especially in the Irish context -- where people prefer words such as 'spiritual'. Being 'religious' is a very subjective measurement," said a spokesman. "For example, in the Catholic Church, someone who attends Mass on a daily basis may not describe themselves as 'religious', yet they are outwardly a person of deep faith." Fr Brendan Hoban, a spokesman for the ACP, said the Red C results were "predictable enough" given the fall-off in Mass attendance and the drop in interest in the Catholic Church in recent years. However, he said Irish Catholic numbers were "holding up markedly" and pointed to the Census figures and the 35% attending Mass on a weekly basis. He suggested that the Catholic Church was "almost traumatised" by the scandals of the last 10 to 15 years, and this was affecting its ability to take steps to address declining religious observation. "It's so difficult for the bishops to provide leadership because, on the one hand, if they speak out, they are criticised, and if they don't speak out, they are also criticised." Meanwhile, Michael Nugent of Atheism Ireland said the Red C poll showed people were rejecting the idea that atheism was an "extreme position". He said the figure of 10% of the population being atheists could be an under-estimation, as there were still people who did not believe in a God, but disliked the "atheist" label. The Red C global poll also found that the richer you got, the less religious you defined yourself. Religiosity was higher among the poor, with people in the bottom-income groups 17% more religious than those in the top-earning groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 8, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted August 8, 2012 I guess they've got quite a lot of it to abandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted August 8, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 8, 2012 Yeah true they're coming from a higher point. The important thing is they're getting it done quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 8, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted August 8, 2012 I think the Catholic church probably needs to follow the example of the tobacco industry - abandon its traditional customer base and target vunerable third world markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted August 8, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8, 2012 Has anyone heard of the Gallery Church? Seems to be a bit of a craze around here (Worcester/Droitwich) of people joining it. It's really frustrating, if you try and explain to them why the idea of the church is completely illogical you get called "small minded"... grrrr.... More annoying is that one of my closest friends has started going with his ex-missus.... he's either been brainwashed or is trying desperately hard to get in her knickers. It puts me off him a bit, which is a shame, bloody church. Keep putting Facebook status' such as "Sat in the garden reading the Bible, what a delight" FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Just had JWs at the door. Expecting something from Amazon, so leapt out the bath and grabbed the nearest towel (a hand towel). Answered the door dripping and mostly nekkid. One made a most interesting wailing noise. They may still both be running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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