Martin O'Neill

[MrDuck]

Looking at the cold hard facts, McLeish has exactly the same record as O'Neill at the Villa in a shorter space of time.

:?:

This doesn't make sense. If it's in a shorter space of time, it can't be exactly the same record, can it?

Also, I haven't noticed McLeish getting three 6th places, buying and bringing on a string of exciting young English players , or getting to an FA Cup final in his time with Villa.

Would I be wrong to conclude the statement I've quoted is just nonsense?

Exactly the same record, ergo neither have achieved any success as Aston Villa manager.

How do they have exactly the same record? By not having any trophies? That's a very odd way of looking at things. Points tallies, cup progress, league positions etc don't count in your book?

[PauloBarnesi]

Exactly the same record, ergo neither have achieved any success as Aston Villa manager.

I guess this depends on how one defines success.

In the context of the posting, history defines success, not any individual's definition

Of course I think our recent history is nothing to compare to the 19th C and a brief period in the 70s & 80s. But I would personally judge that MON’s reign had successes; just small and trophyless.

Frustrating, annoying, dogmatic at times, I still enjoyed parts of his time. Winning 2-0 at Arsenal was a personal favourite. I would probably feel warmly towards McLeish if the Chelsea victory was against other good results. I guess one can argue till the cows come home if MON was as successful as he should have been.

As I ve said before, I suspect Sunderland fans are delighted. Whether they are in two years is another thing. I suspect that the owner is easier to deal with than Lerner as he’s a resident of London as I understand.

[Laivasse]

In the context of the posting, history defines success, not any individual's definition

I don't think you can make any claim to impartiality on the one hand, if on the other you're saying that 'history says MON failed', as if it was an objective fact.

If your only measure of success is silverware then consecutive 6th place finishes could be indistinguishable from consecutive relegation battles, but those obviously aren't the criteria upon which most prem managers are judged.

[Mantis]

people still singing his name at games

What? You've got to be kidding me. :|

The guy took us from being absolutley nowhere to flirting with the big boys once again, being able to beat anyone on our day (and we did), scoring goals for fun, defended like giants, attendences highly than I can remember and teams fearing playing us....Nobody had done that with us for many many years.... how anyone can say he was a failure either has mental issues or are just deluded beyond belief!

That was more down to Randy's investment than anything else.

Not just good but the best manager we have had at the club in 20 years and likely to get in the next 20 under the clown Lerner, IMO of course

How on Earth is he better than Little or Atkinson? :|

Well Atkinson and Little's teams both faded badly, and in their last seasons they were both struggling in at the wrong end of the table. MON didn't have a trophy, but he was a lot more consistent in the league and improving in points every year.

And MON's team faded badly every season. That's why we were never able to crack the top 4.

Look at the facts: Atkinson and Little both won us a trophy and both had higher finishes than O'Neill. They also did it under less than favourable ownership.

If people honestly believe O'Neill is the best manager we've had in the last 20 years then I really do despair.

[Big_John_10]

So using thetrees genius logic we can argue that ashley young is as shit as salifou because they both didn't win anything at villa.

Yeah strong argument that one.

[Big_John_10]

people still singing his name at games

What? You've got to be kidding me. :|

The guy took us from being absolutley nowhere to flirting with the big boys once again, being able to beat anyone on our day (and we did), scoring goals for fun, defended like giants, attendences highly than I can remember and teams fearing playing us....Nobody had done that with us for many many years.... how anyone can say he was a failure either has mental issues or are just deluded beyond belief!

That was more down to Randy's investment than anything else.

Not just good but the best manager we have had at the club in 20 years and likely to get in the next 20 under the clown Lerner, IMO of course

How on Earth is he better than Little or Atkinson? :|

Well Atkinson and Little's teams both faded badly, and in their last seasons they were both struggling in at the wrong end of the table. MON didn't have a trophy, but he was a lot more consistent in the league and improving in points every year.

And MON's team faded badly every season. That's why we were never able to crack the top 4.

Look at the facts: Atkinson and Little both won us a trophy and both had higher finishes than O'Neill. They also did it under less than favourable ownership.

If people honestly believe O'Neill is the best manager we've had in the last 20 years then I really do despair.

So mon does well = down to owners investment.

Manager you like does well = superb manager despite the owner.

Surely if you're gonna be consistent you should give doug the credit for little and atkinson doing well.

[briny_ear]

Also, I haven't noticed McLeish...getting to an FA Cup final in his time with Villa.

To be fair, I didn't notice O'Neill doing that either.

True, true... :oops: :oops:

I always get the cups confused because they play the fa cup semis at Wembley as well as the finals of both.

Let's just revise it to "I haven't noticed McLeish getting us to a League Cup final and an FA Cup semi."

[Richard]

The guy took us from being absolutley nowhere to flirting with the big boys once again, being able to beat anyone on our day (and we did), scoring goals for fun, defended like giants, attendences highly than I can remember and teams fearing playing us....Nobody had done that with us for many many years.... how anyone can say he was a failure either has mental issues or are just deluded beyond belief!

That was more down to Randy's investment than anything else.

Using the same logic, Little and Atkinson achieved success largely down to Ellis's investment than anything else then as he let them spend more than previous managers and Mcleish doing crap is largely down to Lerner not spending than anything else?

MON must have bought some brilliant players that didn't need coaching or managing, just sending out to achieve top 6 three times and increase our points haul each season. But then that cant be right can it as he was shite at transfers.

[briny_ear]

The obsessive and constant referencing of a previous manager by way of this thread, and also in the current manager's thread is pointless and pathetic.

He has gone and has nothing to do with Aston Villa any more.

Personally I don't give a shit about O'Neill either way. He can go and win everything with Sunderland as far as I am concerned, but he will still remain an unsuccessful Aston Villa manager.

And Aston Villa is all that I care about.

Fine: certainly a coherent point of view.

But this is after all a thread called "Martin O'Neill" so it's hardly surprising people are talking about him in it. :confused:

If you hate talking about MON so much, and care so little about him, maybe it would be wise to give this thread a miss? It might make you feel much better.

[Mantis]

people still singing his name at games

What? You've got to be kidding me. :|

The guy took us from being absolutley nowhere to flirting with the big boys once again, being able to beat anyone on our day (and we did), scoring goals for fun, defended like giants, attendences highly than I can remember and teams fearing playing us....Nobody had done that with us for many many years.... how anyone can say he was a failure either has mental issues or are just deluded beyond belief!

That was more down to Randy's investment than anything else.

Not just good but the best manager we have had at the club in 20 years and likely to get in the next 20 under the clown Lerner, IMO of course

How on Earth is he better than Little or Atkinson? :|

Well Atkinson and Little's teams both faded badly, and in their last seasons they were both struggling in at the wrong end of the table. MON didn't have a trophy, but he was a lot more consistent in the league and improving in points every year.

And MON's team faded badly every season. That's why we were never able to crack the top 4.

Look at the facts: Atkinson and Little both won us a trophy and both had higher finishes than O'Neill. They also did it under less than favourable ownership.

If people honestly believe O'Neill is the best manager we've had in the last 20 years then I really do despair.

So mon does well = down to owners investment.

Manager you like does well = superb manager despite the owner.

Surely if you're gonna be consistent you should give doug the credit for little and atkinson doing well.

It's pretty hard to deny that working under Randy pre-2010 would've been a lot easier than working under Doug.

[CI]

When did we last win a trophy (Peace Cup aside), I genuinely cant remember ? 96 ?

[Big_John_10]

I wouldn't disagree with that mantis, but thats not what you said earlier.

[Mantis]

What did I say earlier that was different?

[Big_John_10]

You said anything good under Mon was down to randy's investment.

Which is a bit ridiculous really. Man city might as well have employed a league 2 manager on cheap wages of anything good is mainly down to an owners investment.

[thetrees]

In the context of the posting, history defines success, not any individual's definition

I don't think you can make any claim to impartiality on the one hand, if on the other you're saying that 'history says MON failed', as if it was an objective fact.

If your only measure of success is silverware then consecutive 6th place finishes could be indistinguishable from consecutive relegation battles, but those obviously aren't the criteria upon which most prem managers are judged.

How do they have exactly the same record? By not having any trophies? That's a very odd way of looking at things. Points tallies, cup progress, league positions etc don't count in your book?

Just giving the courtesy of replies.

My posting was about history. History defines success by honours. We didn't win any under O'Neill, and we probably won't under McLeish, in which case they will both have failed as Aston Villa manager.

What I think about cup runs, league positions and (especially) style of football do not count in a historical context.

And I wasn't claiming impartiality. I support Alex McLeish as Aston Villa manager just as I supported Martin O'Neill when he was Aston Villa manager.

[Mantis]

You said anything good under Mon was down to randy's investment.

Which is a bit ridiculous really. Man city might as well have employed a league 2 manager on cheap wages of anything good is mainly down to an owners investment.

No I didn't. What post were you reading? :?

[Big_John_10]

The one where someone listed a load of good things MON did and you replied that it was all mainly down to randy's investment.

[Mantis]

The one where someone listed a load of good things MON did and you replied that it was all mainly down to randy's investment.

I said "it was more down to Randy's investment than anything else", meaning that I thought Randy's investment was the BIGGEST factor, not the ONLY factor.

[PieFacE]

I keep hearing the fact that we had the 6th highest wage bill in the league so finishing 6th was about right in defense of MON not achieving anything. Well IMO, finishing 6th with the 6th highest wage bill proves nothing other then MON is a good manager who achieved exactly what he should have and nothing more, and that he really wasnt anything special at all.

IMO a better manager could have done more.

As for Sunderland, I hope he has success there. Then I hope he **** things up for them

[markavfc40]

I keep hearing the fact that we had the 6th highest wage bill in the league so finishing 6th was about right in defense of MON not achieving anything. Well IMO, finishing 6th with the 6th highest wage bill proves nothing other then MON is a good manager who achieved exactly what he should have

I think apart from the odd extreme either way most people are saying he did what you'd expect him to do given what he spent and our wage bill. Whilst three top 6 finishes on the spin is nothing to be sniffed, certainly given that it was the first time in over 50 years we'd done it, for me arguably his biggest achievement was taking a club that had finished 16th to one that finished 6th two years later. It should also be noted that in 2007/08 we had the 8th highest wage bill when finishing 6th. The fact he was only able to maintain 6th place in the following seasons, whilst admirable, it is obviously a shame he did not over achieve in getting us a little higher.

The pity in all this is of course that it may take only two years for those that have replaced him to undo the above and take a club that had finished 6th down to one that finishes where O'Neill found us when he came in - having just finished 16th.