James Collins

[markavfc40]

I think under a better manager we could've got top 4 (staying there is another matter) and at the very least won a trophy with the money that was spent.

He spent what approx 70 - 80 mill net taking us form 16th to three sixth place finishes on the spin with the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill. Was that really enough to expect to finish above three from Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and from 2008 onwards Man City? I don't personally think it was given the base we started from.

What I do know is that unless we are again prepared to spend big on transfers and again have a wage bill that reflects that of a club competing for a top 6 finish then there is absolutely no chance of us again establishing ourselves as a top 6 side and challenging for Champs League football. We may as Newcastle did last season have the odd very good season but doing it for 3 or 4 seasons on the spin will be another matter.

Lambert will be a very good manager for us but he is not a miracle worker. He will not get us back into the top 6 consistently without decent investment and a wage bill that reflects that position. It appears that Lerner/Faulkner are though unable to get income up to a level that can sustain having a wage bill that reflects that of a top six club.

[lexicon]

You aren't a mind-reader but have the ability to look into the past to see what we could have achieved?

[limvillian]

If MON was a great manager he would've got us more than 6th and a Carling Cup final with the resources he had.

What do you think realistically could have been achieved, who do you think would have managed it, and would they have come to us in the position we were in?

I think under a better manager we could've got top 4 (staying there is another matter) and at the very least won a trophy with the money that was spent.

Can you name the manager?One that would have come to villa at the time MON did?

How am I supposed to know which managers would have come to Villa at that time and which wouldn't? I'm not a mind reader.

Can you name a fairly realistic target that would have got us top 4 even?

[HolteExile]

The short answer is that despite him being a good manager he is not good enough for a top four club. Like many who have gone before, O'Neill will never manage a club as big as us again.

I agree with that. Though I don't think he's even good enough for a top 6 side now.

A good manager, certainly. I'd argue with anyone who said otherwise.

Managers like Curbishley at West Ham and Dalglish during his stint at Newcastle spend shitloads for very little return. O'Neill did make us competitive during his time here and three top six finishes illustrate that.

But if we are acclaiming him as 'great' then so to is John Gregory. And I don't ever recall that being said about Grecian 2000 during his stint with us. In fact, the pair of them had a number of similarities -an over reliance on British based players, often paying over the odds for players and serving up sterile football despite the money spent.

[sne]

O'Neill backed by Lerner did for us what O'Leary backed by Risdale did for Leeds. Short term "success" by spending huge amount of money, but no way near sustainable. None of them are great managers, not even close.

Thank god Lerner pulled the plug before we imploded

[CI]

Warnock is unprofessional, evidence - Swansea QPR everton home games

Dubious

If a player has a bad game it doesn't mean they're unprofessional. If anything I think he's quite professional, didn't moan or cause a huge fuss when Houllier froze him out of the squad. A lot of other players would have made a huge deal about that.

Ou forgot the deliberate OG v QPR & attempt v everton ?

[lexicon]

We played a lot of good football under MON but the big difference between him and Gregory was the era - different times, different circumstances. JG did a good job at Villa but MON made us a team that people actually took notice of and other teams were afraid of playing us - which is something that I've never experienced since supporting Villa (I'm 25). Beating teams like Arsenal and Man Utd (at Old Trafford no less) for a change was absolutely immense - I loved the MON era and hold the man in high esteem because of it.

[daggy_333]

Warnock is unprofessional, evidence - Swansea QPR everton home games

Dubious

If a player has a bad game it doesn't mean they're unprofessional. If anything I think he's quite professional, didn't moan or cause a huge fuss when Houllier froze him out of the squad. A lot of other players would have made a huge deal about that.

Ou forgot the deliberate OG v QPR & attempt v everton ?

Come on CI they weren't deliberate. If anything they were extremely clumsy and they go towards highlighting his lack of concentration!

[CI]

No way, I said after everton I'd be keeping an eye on him

Sure enough he did it v QPR

[lexicon]

O'Neill backed by Lerner did for us what O'Leary backed by Risdale did for Leeds. Short term "success" by spending huge amount of money, but no way near sustainable. None of them are great managers, not even close.

Thank god Lerner pulled the plug before we imploded

Not really comparable. Leeds outspent everyone at that time and were paying pie-in-the-sky wages, we were 6th highest on the wage bill and had spent a fair bit but not like the biggest boys - which is what Leeds did. Not a valid comparison at all.

[daggy_333]

No way, I said after everton I'd be keeping an eye on him

Sure enough he did it v QPR

I was also at those games.

He is clumsy and his concentration is dire but he isn't that unprofessional that he'd try and sabotage his own career by scoring own goals on purpose!

[Craigy1874]

Sorry is this the james collins to sunderland thread or the argue bout martin o'neill thread?

[CI]

His career is nearly over

2 planted headers wide of the keeper but on target, both under little pressure. Mmmmmmmm

[lexicon]

Sorry is this the james collins to sunderland thread or the argue bout martin o'neill thread?

It's the stop crying and contribute to the discussion thread

[CI]

Back on topic looks like we are stuck with JC

[PieFacE]

Warnock is unprofessional, evidence - Swansea QPR everton home games

Dubious

If a player has a bad game it doesn't mean they're unprofessional. If anything I think he's quite professional, didn't moan or cause a huge fuss when Houllier froze him out of the squad. A lot of other players would have made a huge deal about that.

Ou forgot the deliberate OG v QPR & attempt v everton ?

[HolteExile]

If MON was a great manager he would've got us more than 6th and a Carling Cup final with the resources he had.

What do you think realistically could have been achieved, who do you think would have managed it, and would they have come to us in the position we were in?

Ability wise- we weren't a million miles off Everton (who had finished 4th in 2005) and the sides who had qualified for Europe when he took the job in 2006. Sorenson, Bouma, Laursen, Mellberg, Barry and Baros provided a decent core to the side (admittedly Laursen had been unavailable for most of DOL's stint with us).

During his time with us, we outspent the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U, a fact often overlooked in discussions such as these. In 2008 alone we were the 2 or 3rd nd highest spenders in Europe. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a manager who could have utilised such an advantage with more imagination and more value (ie a manager who didn't proceed to buy two new back four's in two seasons) *might* have got us closer to a breakthrough in 2009 and 2010.

Yet you and others constantly seek to frame his time with us as a fight against the odds, the plucky underdog. It's understandable, I suppose. The media fawned over him to a similar degree in Scotland, despite him signing the likes of Chris Sutton and John Hartson, for fees that were on a par with with the biggest spenders in England at the time.

I think I bought into the myth too, that here was a man who could deliver more with less. But his time with us proved him to be very mortal.

As to who could have achieved the breakthrough under similar conditions, Moyes did it with less at Everton in 2005 Redknapp did it with a similar budget in 2010. He had also delivered an FA Cup win during his stint with Pompey- something I think most of us here would have readily accepted at some point during 2006-2010. That may have put MON into the 'great' bracket. Top 6 and one losing cup final would be just about par for the money spent. Under par when considering home form -the most immediate link and barometer paying spectators use when considering the club's fortunes.

Would they have come?

Purely theoretical, of course- but pre coin-throwing incident I think there is a better than average chance that Redknapp would have accepted the job in either 2006 or 2007, aye. Moyes had discussions in 2010 and 2011. Two thing's that scuppered the deal is Everton (understandably) wanting a fairly hefty release fee and Moyes not getting the type of transfer budget that made leaving Everton worthwhile. But he was curious enough to at least discuss the proposal. Would things have been different had we asked in 2006 and 2007 - before MON obliterated large swathes of Lerner's money on Curtis Davies, Carlos Cuellar, Steve Sidwell, Shorey, Habib Beye, Stephen Warnock, Harewood, Heskey and co -and that small fortune was available to him instead? I'd say there's a distinct possibility, yeah.

And those are only the two obvious names - if we are employing MON's myopic approach to recruitment. Who's to say a candidate from beyond these shores couldn't have got more value from the guts of £200 million?

[Woodytom]

Disagree - He must have played half decent as he wouldnt have got a call up to the England squad etc.

Henderson got called up for the England squad so I wouldn't read anything into that personally plus he was hardly first choice it was because of an injury he went in the first place.

It has always been a joke.

He seemed to be badly affected by the shin injury about Feb time I think - and his form deteriated from there.

He has been terrible since he signed, no injury etc excuse will cover this up.

It really is baffling how people give him a chance every season to produce the crap form he has since he signed.. would rather have a much younger better full back in place, Someone who isn't caught out of position every few minutes most teams know Warnock is a poor defender and they target the left side for this specific purpose.

So should we always base an England call-up on a negative in that Jordan Henderson was also called up?

I could equally say Wayne Rooney was called up after a brilliant season!

Its an England call up. None is completely undeserved. Some form of potential will have had to been shown.

Anyway were going slightly off-topic. My point still stands that its probably a positive (based on the last 2 seasons) that Collins and Warnock may go! However, it is undoubted (however much you want to deny it) that they are capable of performing better under the right management and I just think that atm, we are being a tadge naive in thinking that we will automatically replace these guys with anything better.

There is so far nothing to suggest that Clark, Vlaar (should we get him), Lowton, Stevens, Baker or any other unknown prem quantity will prove a better option than what we currently have. At the moment our defence looks weak. Swap Collins for Vlaar (who I don't no much about in all fairness) and it doesnt look all that much stronger if stronger at all.

Misplaced optimism atm in my eyes.

If anything - Lichaj is the 1 Im most confident in. The rest are unknown or have been equally as abysmal as Collins et al

[Mantis]

Can you name a fairly realistic target that would have got us top 4 even?

Again, how am I supposed to know who was gettable at that particular time?

You aren't a mind-reader but have the ability to look into the past to see what we could have achieved?

I said we could've achieved top 4 with a great manager had the backing from Lerner been the same. That's all.

I think under a better manager we could've got top 4 (staying there is another matter) and at the very least won a trophy with the money that was spent.

He spent what approx 70 - 80 mill net taking us form 16th to three sixth place finishes on the spin with the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill. Was that really enough to expect to finish above three from Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and from 2008 onwards Man City? I don't personally think it was given the base we started from.

What I do know is that unless we are again prepared to spend big on transfers and again have a wage bill that reflects that of a club competing for a top 6 finish then there is absolutely no chance of us again establishing ourselves as a top 6 side and challenging for Champs League football. We may as Newcastle did last season have the odd very good season but doing it for 3 or 4 seasons on the spin will be another matter.

Lambert will be a very good manager for us but he is not a miracle worker. He will not get us back into the top 6 consistently without decent investment and a wage bill that reflects that position. It appears that Lerner/Faulkner are though unable to get income up to a level that can sustain having a wage bill that reflects that of a top six club.

We almost did in 2009. It was only because of O'Neill's refusal to rotate his squad and insistence on "buying British" (and thus paying over the odds) that prevented us from getting there. O'Neill is not a poor manager, I just dispute the idea that he is great. He isn't. His record at Villa proves that.

The level of spending was never sustainable. You blame Lerner and Faulkner for not getting the income levels back up but the fact is we just don't have the fanbase that other clubs do. Even at our best under Lerner we weren't selling out week in week out.

We played a lot of good football under MON but the big difference between him and Gregory was the era - different times, different circumstances. JG did a good job at Villa but MON made us a team that people actually took notice of and other teams were afraid of playing us - which is something that I've never experienced since supporting Villa (I'm 25). Beating teams like Arsenal and Man Utd (at Old Trafford no less) for a change was absolutely immense - I loved the MON era and hold the man in high esteem because of it.

What was so good about the football we played under O'Neill? It was largely effective but I certainly wouldn't call it good in the sense that it was good to watch.

The MON years were good but let's not forget they were backed up by heavy spending, which as we have seen was also unsustainable.

[lexicon]

I can appreciate more forms of football than a short-passing Barcelona type game that everyone raves about. I liked the fast, direct counter attacking football that we had under MON and I don't see why it wasn't good to watch.