MakemineVanilla Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I know of many Palestinians who do not like Hamas. Yet for them, the Gaza war is about the siege – part of their own war of independence. Israelis refuse to get that. In The Fog of War, Errol Morris’ excellent documentary, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara speaks about a certain inability to understand the enemy – one that stems from a lack of empathy. In the film, McNamara, a brilliant systems analyst, who is today associated more than anything with the Vietnam War, says that part of President Kennedy’s successful management of the Cuban Missile Crisis was his administration’s ability to put itself in the shoes of the Soviets and understand their point of view. “In the case of Vietnam,” he says, “we didn’t know them well enough to empathize.” As a result, each side had a completely different understanding of what the war was about. This understanding came to McNamara only in 1991, when he visited Vietnam and met with the country’s foreign minister. McNamara asked the foreign minister whether he thought it was possible to reach the same results of the war (independence and uniting the south with the north) without the heavy losses. Between one and three million people died in the war, most of them Vietnamese civilians. This does not include the hundreds of thousands of casualties in the war against the French, which took place shortly before. Approximately 58,000 American soldiers were also killed in the Vietnam War. “You were fighting to enslave us,” yelled the foreign minister at McNamara, who in turn replied that that is an absurd notion. The two nearly came to blows. But as time passed McNamara understood. “We saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War,” he says, whereas what the foreign minister was trying to tell him was that for the Vietnamese it was a war of independence. Communism was not the heart of the matter for the Vietnamese. They were willing to make the worst sacrifices because they were fighting for their freedom – not for Marx or Brezhnev. Nations will make inconceivable sacrifices in these kinds of struggles. An entire one percent of the Jewish population was killed in the 1948 war. The public accepted it painfully and with a stiff upper lip because they felt, just like the Vietnamese, that they were fighting for their lives and for their freedom. We have become so much more susceptible to loss, not because we went soft, but because we have a deeper understanding that despite all the “we’re fighting for our future” slogans, 2014 is not 1948. Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed in all three military operations in Gaza, not including the Second Intifada. Most of them were civilians. I’ve exchanged emails with people in Gaza in the past few days. These are people who don’t care much for Hamas in their everyday lives, whether due to its fundamentalist ideology, political oppression or other aspects of its rule. But they do support Hamas in its war against Israel; for them, fighting the siege is their war of independence. Or at least one part of it. The demand that the people of Gaza protest against Hamas, often heard in Israel today, is absurd. Even if we disregard the fact that Israelis themselves hate protests in times of war, they still expect the Palestinians to conduct a civil uprising under fire. The people of Gaza support Hamas in its war against Israel because they perceive it to be part of their war of independence. A Hamas warrior who swears by the Quran is no different from a Vietcong reciting The Internationale before leaving for battle. These kind of rituals leave a strong impression, but they are not the real story. Israelis, both left and right, are wrong to assume that Hamas is a dictatorship fighting Israel against its people’s will. Hamas is indeed a dictatorship, and there are many Palestinians who would gladly see it fall, but not at this moment in time. Right now I have no doubt that most Palestinians support the attacks on IDF soldiers entering Gaza; they support kidnapping as means to release their prisoners (whom they see as prisoners of war) and the unpleasant fact is that most of them, I believe, support firing rockets at Israel. “If we had planes and tanks to fight the IDF, we wouldn’t need to fire rockets,” is a sentence I have heard more than once. As an Israeli, it is unpleasant for me to hear, but one needs to at least try and understand what lies behind such a position. What is certain is that bombing Gaza will not change their minds. On the contrary. “But if they didn’t fire rockets or launch terror attacks there would be no siege. So what do they want?” the Israeli public asks. After all, we already left Gaza. Back to McNamara and The Fog of War. If the citizens of Vietnam would have abandoned Communism, McNamara told the Vietnamese foreign minister 1991, the U.S. wouldn’t have even cared about them. They could have had both their independence and their unity. But in the eyes of the Vietnamese, things looked completely different. As soon as they managed to drive out the French, in marched the Americans. Colonialism simply never stopped. The choice was between a corrupt U.S.-sponsored regime in the south and a horrific war with the north. For the Palestinians, the choice is between occupation by proxy in the West Bank and a war in Gaza. Both offer no hope, and neither are forms of freedom. The Israeli promise — that an end to armed struggle will bring freedom — is not trustworthy, as the experiences of past years has shown. It simply never happens. The quiet years in the West Bank have not brought the Palestinians any closer to an independent state, while the truce in between wars in Gaza has not brought about a relief from the siege. One can debate the reasons for why this happened, but one cannot debate reality. Hamas tells the Palestinians the simple truth: freedom comes at the cost of blood. The tragedy is that we usually provide the evidence. After all, the evacuation of settlements in Gaza came after the Second Intifada, not as a result of negotiations. The Oslo Accords came after the First Intifada; before that, Israel turned down even the convenient London Agreement between Shimon Peres and Jordan’s King Hussein. Israelis are convinced they are fighting a terror organization driven by a fundamentalist Islamic ideology. Palestinians are convinced Israelis are looking to enslave them, and that as soon as the war is over the siege will be reinforced. Since this is exactly what Israel intends to do, as our government has repeatedly stated, they have no reason to stop fighting. Hamas may accept a ceasefire soon. Its regime might collapse. Either way, it is only a matter of time before the next round of violence. Human lives are not cheaper for Palestinians than they are for us. But nations fighting for their freedom will endure the worst sacrifices. Like in Shujaiyeh. Noam Sheizaf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sadly a lot of people probably share your view, a lot wouldn't express it and a lot that do do so at EDL marches, you still appear to have an open mind but limited experience if I read you correctly which is very different. Personally I would say a small percentage of the Muslim world are gaining disproportionate media coverage and colouring your views and a lot of other people's views. Just as in any religion, nationality or social group the Muslim faith is made up of a very wide spectrum of people many of whom are the complete opposite to the more public, more media focussed militant jihadist minority. It's a little like back in the 80's all non football fans thought all football fans were thugs because their only exposure to them was what they saw on the news. I do think that the Muslim community both here and abroad should do more to try and redress this imbalance not least for their own benefit but from my own personal experience I can say I think you are wrong but I can understand why you think that way with limited exposure and only the media to form an opinion from. i completely agree with what you say about the muslim community here and abroad doing more to paint a different view. i think they could do a lot more, in my eyes they dont seem to intergrate very well but thats just through my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Where I live the youth seem to thrive on being segregated. They love the 'us against the world' mentality and excuse to act like hoodlums. As if they have no other choice. They give Islam a bad name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 23, 2014 Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2014 To a large extent that is true but that isn't sad sinister as some would have people believe it's more about trying to protect or maintain their community, religion and values in a new country. It is also people's nature to sick together but it gets watered down through generations, as immigrants into this county many are still 1st generation. Take a look at our ex pat communities around the world, look how they sick together and the communities they create they aren't all that different really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The 1st generation aren't a problem Trent. It's the 2nd and 3rd that carry a massive chip on their shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 i get the us and them attitude and i get they feel the need to protect their own, i mean the west has created some of this problem to a degree. ive been and worked in indian communities and also black communities but when ive worked in muslim areas there just seems this horrible negative vibe, like what are you doing in this area and it just feels such horrible places where as say indian communities seem a lot more open and vibrant. just my view of how i feel and see things, but im someone with no experience and socialisation of other faiths and cultures. no way in a million years would i march with edl or bnp members, i hate that image its tacky and very unsavoury. im not a right wing person at all, infact i commented before that i can see the appeal of isis for young muslims. they come across very with it and project a cool image. they come across as rock stars for the young muslim world and i can see why they appeal to people. obviously i dont agree with there actions but they are the new trendy image of terrorism and they are taking it to new modern boundaries. The 1st generation aren't a problem Trent. It's the 2nd and 3rd that carry a massive chip on their shoulders. completely agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 23, 2014 Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2014 i get the us and them attitude and i get they feel the need to protect their own, i mean the west has created some of this problem to a degree. ive been and worked in indian communities and also black communities but when ive worked in muslim areas there just seems this horrible negative vibe, like what are you doing in this area and it just feels such horrible places where as say indian communities seem a lot more open and vibrant. just my view of how i feel and see things, but im someone with no experience and socialisation of other faiths and cultures... Maybe, just maybe part of your feelings as previously expressed contribute to that impression? Maybe as well as, or instead of expecting or wanting Muslim communities to "demonstrate their goodness" to paraphrase you, you could kind of actively take an interest in them when you meet them. You seem naturally open and inquisitive and friendly, so those good attributes you have - use them when you're in their homes or places - just ask questions - just like you do on here? - I guarantee (almost) you'll find loads of common ground and shared experiences and thoughts. They're not foreigners, they're maybe different culturally in some regards, but most people appreciate the same simple things and sometimes just (even if initially forced a bit) a smile and handshake and "thanks for welcoming me into your home" or "nice to meet you and some small chat" just shows them you're the good guy you are, and then from there.... Not everyone will suddenly change, but over time it'll make your days a bit nicer and your experiences a bit more rewarding. A lot of the taxi drivers round here are Asian, many muslim (I guess, from their dress) and (as I like cricket) I ask them if they know the score, or what they think about whatever's going on in cricket and for me it works loads of times - a journey spent listening to all kinds of stories - they start off telling me the score, or saying they prefer football, or how their wife won't let them watch it, or they can't afford to go because they're moving house, or just all kinds of tales. I suppose you could say I'm guilty of stereotyping - "Asians love cricket", and perhaps I am, and sometimes I get a "dunno mate", and change the subject. But there's always something to jabber on about, for me. The odd person will just ignore me, and talk on their mobile or whatever, but it's rare. Just that initial interest in something and then in them is a good way to have a better journey and find out a little bit about someone else's life. Other times it's "what do you make of all these roadworks -are the council going mad, or what?" totally off topic I suppose, but the point I'm making is I guess whatever people look like, we're mostly all exactly the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 yeah id go with that first line of your post, i do have a negative stereotype of muslims so that would explain some of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Technically I don't think you are Asian if you don't like cricket 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Technically I don't think you are Asian if you don't like cricket I don't like Cricket. The British gave us the wrong sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 i get the us and them attitude and i get they feel the need to protect their own, i mean the west has created some of this problem to a degree. ive been and worked in indian communities and also black communities but when ive worked in muslim areas there just seems this horrible negative vibe, like what are you doing in this area and it just feels such horrible places where as say indian communities seem a lot more open and vibrant. just my view of how i feel and see things, but im someone with no experience and socialisation of other faiths and cultures... Maybe, just maybe part of your feelings as previously expressed contribute to that impression? Maybe as well as, or instead of expecting or wanting Muslim communities to "demonstrate their goodness" to paraphrase you, you could kind of actively take an interest in them You would get a punch for looking in the direction of certain youngsters. Let alone asking them a question. As I mentioned preciously and something Rugely has commented on. It's not Islam or a Muslim community that is the problem. It's a drug fuelled youth filled with hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 i get the us and them attitude and i get they feel the need to protect their own, i mean the west has created some of this problem to a degree. ive been and worked in indian communities and also black communities but when ive worked in muslim areas there just seems this horrible negative vibe, like what are you doing in this area and it just feels such horrible places where as say indian communities seem a lot more open and vibrant. just my view of how i feel and see things, but im someone with no experience and socialisation of other faiths and cultures... Maybe, just maybe part of your feelings as previously expressed contribute to that impression? Maybe as well as, or instead of expecting or wanting Muslim communities to "demonstrate their goodness" to paraphrase you, you could kind of actively take an interest in them when you meet them. You seem naturally open and inquisitive and friendly, so those good attributes you have - use them when you're in their homes or places - just ask questions - just like you do on here? - I guarantee (almost) you'll find loads of common ground and shared experiences and thoughts. They're not foreigners, they're maybe different culturally in some regards, but most people appreciate the same simple things and sometimes just (even if initially forced a bit) a smile and handshake and "thanks for welcoming me into your home" or "nice to meet you and some small chat" just shows them you're the good guy you are, and then from there.... Not everyone will suddenly change, but over time it'll make your days a bit nicer and your experiences a bit more rewarding. A lot of the taxi drivers round here are Asian, many muslim (I guess, from their dress) and (as I like cricket) I ask them if they know the score, or what they think about whatever's going on in cricket and for me it works loads of times - a journey spent listening to all kinds of stories - they start off telling me the score, or saying they prefer football, or how their wife won't let them watch it, or they can't afford to go because they're moving house, or just all kinds of tales. I suppose you could say I'm guilty of stereotyping - "Asians love cricket", and perhaps I am, and sometimes I get a "dunno mate", and change the subject. But there's always something to jabber on about, for me. The odd person will just ignore me, and talk on their mobile or whatever, but it's rare. Just that initial interest in something and then in them is a good way to have a better journey and find out a little bit about someone else's life. Other times it's "what do you make of all these roadworks -are the council going mad, or what?" totally off topic I suppose, but the point I'm making is I guess whatever people look like, we're mostly all exactly the same. The trouble with the younger generation is that they are as boring as the rest of us; they can't tell you tales of growing mangos, exotic wildlife, or how to keep water cold when it is 40C, and there is no fridge, and most of them have never even played kabaddi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Technically I don't think you are Asian if you don't like cricket I don't like Cricket. The British gave us the wrong sport. i dont like cricket oh no, i love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 http://vimeo.com/50531435 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I was relieved to see that Chine, Russia and Saudi Arabia saw fit to inspect human rights in Israel. I am sure they will use their experience to show us how to do things right. Edited July 24, 2014 by Glarmorgan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Yes, not a great deal to choose between those four in respect of human rights abuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Now shelling a UN school where 1,000 displaced people were sheltering. 30 counted dead so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 This has happened before right? How did it end then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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