CottenM Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I'd suggest that with Big Barry's raw crossing ability from the middle of the park, and his 2% better success ratio from corners than the former Crewe* man, he should definitely be starting every game. As we saw in the season when Liverpool adopted the "moneyball" method and snapped up Henderson, Carroll and Downing, the statistical approach is one that works well. Its interesting because from watching the matches myself I'd say he offers very little going forwards or backwards. Which is in fact, wrong. *this isn't knocking Crewe's fine academy or Westwood who has had a decent season. Just saying, it's a bit like beating Britain's number 3 tennis player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 And a massively overhit corner that is collected on the opposite touchline by our player is "accurate" as is an underhit one that our player manages to get a toe on in front of the first man. There are no "accurate" corners like that on Bannan's record. Double check yourself. If there were, I'd file it under "Fail". First of all, stop talking shit Con. You did not watch all the crosses so you did not "file" it anywhere. Someone at whoscored did. Secondly, while I disagree with Con about the validity of the key pass stat, it is probably as good as we can do but is still inherently flawed, his basic premise is correct. Assists do not tell the story. To have an assist, two things have to happen. The first is player A has to create a chance. The second is player B has to put away the chance. If player A creates a chance that player B then fails to convert, then no assist is given. So if you only look at assists you are penalizing player A for the inability of player B. For this reason, the idea behind the key pass stat is much more telling that assists. And so, to Con's point, Westwood having 2 assists with fewer "good" corners than Bannan is just a statistical anomaly. Now if the key pass stat actually reflects a good, goal scoring chance is another matter all together...... To be fair though player A could over hit a side ways pass, miss player B completely and player C could smash one in from 40 yards resulting in an assist for player A. The same can be said if it is just a shot on goal that is collected easily by the goal keeper and be deemed a key pass. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we have done more from Westwood's corners than Bannan's. Reading at home is a key example where Bannan floated a load to the back post all evening and nothing came of them, then bang up pops Westwood and Benteke and 3 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) So with Benteke the best target man in Europe How come the best crosser in England,cannot put the ball on his head? Because the stats are FLAWED and Bannan's are all about percentages (I bet he has one area, the only area he can put the ball), where-as people like Westwood (who have the gift and ability to find a player from a corner) can set up goals - because they have the ability to put the ball into dangerous areas. Mass media are statistically innumerate when it suits them for a good story, and I'm surprised you fell for it. Maybe, Carroll and Crouch win a greater percentage of their headers than Benteke. Benteke is top only on the total numbers of headers won, which only shows he's played more games than Carroll and Crouch. http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013 Edited May 1, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I'd suggest that with Big Barry's raw crossing ability from the middle of the park, and his 2% better success ratio from corners than the former Crewe* man, he should definitely be starting every game. As we saw in the season when Liverpool adopted the "moneyball" method and snapped up Henderson, Carroll and Downing, the statistical approach is one that works well. All three players have proven a success. The problem was the price Liverpool were willing to pay to get them. "Moneyball" doesn't tell you to ridiculously overpay to get the guy you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 So with Benteke the best target man in Europe How come the best crosser in England,cannot put the ball on his head? Because the stats are FLAWED and Bannan's are all about percentages (I bet he has one area, the only area he can put the ball), where-as people like Westwood (who have the gift and ability to find a player from a corner) can set up goals - because they have the ability to put the ball into dangerous areas. Mass media are statistically innumerate when it suits them for a good story, and I'm surprised you fell for it. Maybe, Carroll and Crouch win a greater percentage of their headers than Benteke. Benteke is top only on the total numbers of headers won, which only shows he's played more games than Carroll and Crouch. http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013 What? On the site you provided Crouch has 8.1 for aerial duels won. Benteke has 8.2. How is he better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) So with Benteke the best target man in Europe How come the best crosser in England,cannot put the ball on his head? Because the stats are FLAWED and Bannan's are all about percentages (I bet he has one area, the only area he can put the ball), where-as people like Westwood (who have the gift and ability to find a player from a corner) can set up goals - because they have the ability to put the ball into dangerous areas. Mass media are statistically innumerate when it suits them for a good story, and I'm surprised you fell for it. Maybe, Carroll and Crouch win a greater percentage of their headers than Benteke. Benteke is top only on the total numbers of headers won, which only shows he's played more games than Carroll and Crouch. http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013 What? On the site you provided Crouch has 8.1 for aerial duels won. Benteke has 8.2. How is he better? Won per game. That's not proportion. Scroll over you get the actual number of headers won / total aerial duels. Number of duels won per game is also an effect of team possession, number of crosses sent in which can depend on set pieces won. If you want to know how good Benteke is one-on-one compared to the other two, you need the proportion - headers won / total aerial duels * 100 The frightening thing from our POV is Benteke is still getting better. This is his first season and he's right up there. Edited May 1, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa-revolution Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 So with Benteke the best target man in Europe How come the best crosser in England,cannot put the ball on his head? Because the stats are FLAWED and Bannan's are all about percentages (I bet he has one area, the only area he can put the ball), where-as people like Westwood (who have the gift and ability to find a player from a corner) can set up goals - because they have the ability to put the ball into dangerous areas. Mass media are statistically innumerate when it suits them for a good story, and I'm surprised you fell for it. Maybe, Carroll and Crouch win a greater percentage of their headers than Benteke. Benteke is top only on the total numbers of headers won, which only shows he's played more games than Carroll and Crouch. http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013 What? On the site you provided Crouch has 8.1 for aerial duels won. Benteke has 8.2. How is he better? Won per game. That's not proportion. Scroll over you get the actual number of headers won / total aerial duels. Number of duels won per game is also an effect of team possession, number of crosses sent in which can depend on set pieces won. If you want to know how good Benteke is one-on-one compared to the other two, you need the proportion - headers won / total aerial duels * 100 The frightening thing from our POV is Benteke is still getting better. This is his first season and he's right up there. Con, the research you provide is both fascinating & entertaining. Inversely it is also misleading & perverse because it is corrupted by intepretation. Unless you are Paul Daniels or David Blane then my own eyes do not deceive me & tell me that your stats are telling porkies that you are choosing to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatG87 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Look. The guy is cack, in every possible way. I hope we sell him just so I can see the end of this thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 We've won six games with Bannan. 33% of the games he plays we win - that's about the highest in the squad. The stats aren't lying and I'm not convinced that we have a good reason to interpret good stats badly. When he plays we keep winning. That's the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa-revolution Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 We've won six games with Bannan. 33% of the games he plays we win - that's about the highest in the squad. The stats aren't lying and I'm not convinced that we have a good reason to interpret good stats badly. When he plays we keep winning. That's the bottom line. Con, when Bannan plays we keep winning (Your words not mine - see above) To me ( if I didn't know better) this suggests that Bannan is the key player. Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't Bannan playing in that nightmare 8-0 debacle at Stamford Bridge or does he only take the credit when we win. Also Con, can you tell me if we have ever scored off a Bannan corner in all the games he has played in since he made his debut?. Over to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatG87 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I wouldn't rely on stats like that, football stats are often wrong for a whole host of reasons. For one, you're looking at a very small sample size of 18 games. Any proper statistical test would probably show that you can make no hypothesis based on this. Based on 100 or so games I might believe you. This thing is heavily skewed to all sorts of stuff, have you weighted the statistics based on the quality of the opposition? No. So there's a flaw straight off. Other stuff. Tactics play a part, the oppositions tactics play a part. Who else was injured or fit when we won with Bannan? All of this stuff matters a lot and you have taken none of into consideration. So to just go around quoting percentages means absolutely nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CottenM Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 We should never have sold Steve Sidwell, with a win percentage of 53% officially the greatest ever Villa player of the Premier League era. (and probably all time) I didn't need win percentages to tell me that though... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 We should never have sold Steve Sidwell, with a win percentage of 53% officially the greatest ever Villa player of the Premier League era. (and probably all time) I didn't need win percentages to tell me that though... Yes we should. His wife was to send me one of his villa jerseys and i didnt see out. Long story but got sweet FA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) You're all being trolled softly. Edited May 1, 2013 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatG87 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I wouldn't rely on stats like that, football stats are often wrong for a whole host of reasons. For one, you're looking at a very small sample size of 18 games. Any proper statistical test would probably show that you can make no hypothesis based on this. Based on 100 or so games I might believe you. This thing is heavily skewed to all sorts of stuff, have you weighted the statistics based on the quality of the opposition? No. So there's a flaw straight off. Other stuff. Tactics play a part, the oppositions tactics play a part. Who else was injured or fit when we won with Bannan? All of this stuff matters a lot and you have taken none of into consideration. So to just go around quoting percentages means absolutely nothing. We should never have sold Steve Sidwell, with a win percentage of 53% officially the greatest ever Villa player of the Premier League era. (and probably all time) I didn't need win percentages to tell me that though... Case and Point. He's shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruff Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 We've won six games with Bannan. 33% of the games he plays we win - that's about the highest in the squad. The stats aren't lying and I'm not convinced that we have a good reason to interpret good stats badly. When he plays we keep winning. That's the bottom line. In a complete disregard of opposition, their current form and our current form. And the most important aspect the performance of the 21 other players on the pitch. Bannan might have a horrible day, yet play in a winning side if he gets carried by his teammates. That Bannan win % stats you keep spouting around is completely irrelevant to the discussion on whether Barry Bannan is a good player or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) Bannan played the full 90 minutes during our heaviest ever PL defeat (8-0 against Chelsea) but didn't play at all during one of our highest scoring PL wins (6-1 against Sunderland). Stats can show whatever you want them to show. Edited May 1, 2013 by Mantis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa-revolution Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 You're all being trolled softly. We are now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayls Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 So what actually has happened to Bannan? Is he injured or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa-revolution Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 So what actually has happened to Bannan? Is he injured or? He's practising corners. His first 65 hit the moon. The gaffer told him to aim lower & he hit Saturn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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