Bolitics The New Condem Government

[snowychap]

the ConDem parties have gone back on many of the conditions that that said they were putting forward within minutes

So you are suggesting that there ought to be no compromise? :?

[markavfc40]

Not sure what the feeling of Lib Dem supporters on here is but colleagues at work I've spoken to today are less than happy about the fact that they have gone against many of the things that they believed in.

The complete about turn in making £6 billion in cuts immediately given both Clegg and Cable were stating how much they were opposed to this and how it would jeopardise the recovery is the one I find most astonishing.

The Lib Dems might as well cease to exist as they will no longer be seen as a credible party in this country.

[drat01]

But Ian, you are in favour of electoral reform aren't you? (I'm sure you said that), this is exactly what it will be like under PR of most forms

Yes I am in favour of electoral reform - one would hope that any commitment that each of the parties made would then be reflected would not be discarded within minutes of getting elected. It seems now that for one party they have now done a complete and utter U turn on electoral reform.

The points are though fairly straight forward and a quick (re)read of the threads on here back it up, that some use the manifesto as the contract that they can judge a Gvmt by. Now the realism is that things change over a period of time - for some its years, for others its minutes.

If we do get a revised voting system - and interestingly again how come so many who were so against it are now saying that the ConDem lot are setting out a good set of policy and ideas - surely then they are now fully supporters of Electoral reform?

Clegg is a local MP to up here and the reactions on various media outlets have not given him a 100% support rating and again a look at the various blogs and websites seem to back that up.

Politics is changing - maybe the Tory party want this to fail so that they can say alliances don't work? Who knows - I am just enjoying a lot of the hypocrisy though from people on here and in the political environments

[Condimentalist]

Not sure what the feeling of Lib Dem supporters on here is but colleagues at work I've spoken to today are less than happy about the fact that they have gone against many of the things that they believed in.

The complete about turn in making £6 billion in cuts immediately given both Clegg and Cable were stating how much they were opposed to this and how it would jeopardise the recovery is the one I find most astonishing.

The Lib Dems might as well cease to exist as they will no longer be seen as a credible party in this country.

As a neutral, but one who voted for the Lib Dems at this election, I'm pleased that they will have the chance to influence the government and I hope it gains them some electoral credibility and people will finally take them seriously.

I'm staggered at how many people appear not to comprehend the notion of (and necessity for) compromise.

[drat01]

the ConDem parties have gone back on many of the conditions that that said they were putting forward within minutes

So you are suggesting that there ought to be no compromise? :?

where have I said that? But when you have such differing views with very little in common, there is not compromise but there is capitulation and a disregard of your core beliefs that you have sold to the electorate.

Already I would say its off to a very bad start because of the abandonment of these core beliefs. Let's hope for our sakes that they are real and truthful - I remain totally unconvinced that they are

[snowychap]

The Lib Dems might as well cease to exist as they will no longer be seen as a credible party in this country.

Are you going to add this to your sig?

The complete about turn in making £6 billion in cuts immediately

The coalition agreement states:

The parties agree that modest cuts of £6 billion to non-front line services can be made within the financial year 2010-11, subject to advice from the Treasury and the Bank of England on their feasibility and advisability. Some proportion of these savings can be used to support jobs, for example through the cancelling of some backdated demands for business rates.

BTW, that isn't a support for cuts to public services (because I don't agree with them) - it might temper the rhetoric, though.

[bickster]

Not sure what the feeling of Lib Dem supporters on here is but colleagues at work I've spoken to today are less than happy about the fact that they have gone against many of the things that they believed in.

The complete about turn in making £6 billion in cuts immediately given both Clegg and Cable were stating how much they were opposed to this and how it would jeopardise the recovery is the one I find most astonishing.

The Lib Dems might as well cease to exist as they will no longer be seen as a credible party in this country.

But the absolute cornerstone policy of the LibDems for decades has been PR. For LibDems to come out and say they don't like the idea of compromise and coalition is frankly laughable. This is consensus politics, this is two parties trying to get along for the good of the country and making compromises with each other to try to get us through another five years, what on earth do they think PR will be like?

[Condimentalist]

the ConDem parties have gone back on many of the conditions that that said they were putting forward within minutes

So you are suggesting that there ought to be no compromise? :?

where have I said that? But when you have such differing views with very little in common, there is not compromise but there is capitulation and a disregard of your core beliefs that you have sold to the electorate.

Already I would say its off to a very bad start because of the abandonment of these core beliefs. Let's hope for our sakes that they are real and truthful - I remain totally unconvinced that they are

I think the compromise is actually one of the more attractive elements of PR (and this government)

[saturdaygig]

The Lib Dems might as well cease to exist as they will no longer be seen as a credible party in this country.

But most of the people didn't see them as a credible party anyway.

I don't see what the objectors expected them to, once they got in a position to be part of a government. A Tory minority goverment would have lasted a few weeks, then we'd have had another election, with the libs either back in the position they are now, or back in the insignificant box where they've been for 100 years.

So my question to lib voters who don't like this situation is this; what did you expect them to do?

[kidlewis]

The thing is many many Lib Dem supporters are upset by what they see as a sell out by Clegg and even Cable is getting some stick - and IMO rightly so because they have gone against a lot of traditional and fundamental LibDem principles. There will be a honeymoon period but with people like Osborne and the Homophobe as Home Secretary we will see very quickly what they have joined with.

Interesting times - a laugh a minute so it seems

I am sorry but surely you must be aware in this situation they HAVE to make compromises somewhere? Tories have also made compromises that the Labour party obviously wouldn't even entertain, which is why their talks broke down so quickly.

The referendum on AV probably angered a lot of old tories who probably feel a bit sick at the though of it even being discussed, let alone given to the Lib Dems as an option.

Deal probably favours the tories slightly, but not massively, after all some significant cabinet roles have been filled by Lib Dems and they have managed to get the tories to back down on inheritance tax.

It's not about lying is it? it's saying 'well we couldn't do it alone so will have to not get our way in every policy department'.

that is obvious.

the rainbow alliance wouldn't have held water, considering before it even got close SNP wasn't an option and getting Plaid on side would be pretty difficult considering Labour themselves were reducing their funding by £300m (according to some Plaid MP).

so I doubt it would have been that strong and probably resulted in Lib Dems not having as much of a say (and certainly not as many cabinet seats) as they have gotten with the tories.

[drat01]

KL - hang on I remember a certain bunch on VT who said many many times that you could not use the opposition as part of your argument for the current Gvmt and that we had to comment only about them? So your reference to Labour is invalid using those rules.

The LibDems have sold themselves out big style, the core voters are making themselves known and how much they feel let down it seems. This is not about compromise because typically that would be about just a couple of issues at max. The changes we are seeing already from both parties in this alliance on many of the key policies make it more than compromise and more a case of complete and utter U turn. The questions now have to be how much each of them are committed to these policies considering the fact that only a matter of days back they held totally differing viewpoints. How quickly would a Tory majority gvmt repeal and reverse any of these policies? You must admit there has never really been a common ground between LibDems and the Tory party so why should Joe Public believe that there has been this sudden change in each of the core beliefs in those parties now that will allow them to continue to work together?

[markavfc40]

So my question to lib voters who don't like this situation is this; what did you expect them to do?

They should have respected their own core principles and beliefs and have said to the Tories we are miles apart in terms of common policies and where we stand politically so we can't go against that and form a coalition.

The Tories could have gone into Government with a minority and the Libs could have supported them on what they thought was right and voted against them on what they didn't.

There is making compromises and selling out and they have sold out.

[kidlewis]

KL - hang on I remember a certain bunch on VT who said many many times that you could not use the opposition as part of your argument for the current Gvmt and that we had to comment only about them? So your reference to Labour is invalid using those rules.

don't care tbh I think it's valid, considering the opposition has been in opposition for.... less than 24 hours. it's not like they've been there for 13 years is it!?

The LibDems have sold themselves out big style, the core voters are making themselves known and how much they feel let down it seems. This is not about compromise because typically that would be about just a couple of issues at max. The changes we are seeing already from both parties in this alliance on many of the key policies make it more than compromise and more a case of complete and utter U turn. The questions now have to be how much each of them are committed to these policies considering the fact that only a matter of days back they held totally differing viewpoints. How quickly would a Tory majority gvmt repeal and reverse any of these policies? You must admit there has never really been a common ground between LibDems and the Tory party so why should Joe Public believe that there has been this sudden change in each of the core beliefs in those parties now that will allow them to continue to work together?

they'd have sold themselves whichever way they went because Labours amazing desire to control almost anything they can is anything but liberal in policy. On social reform and SOME taxation maybe, but on ID cards, databasing, civil liberties they are galaxies apart.

[Condimentalist]

So my question to lib voters who don't like this situation is this; what did you expect them to do?

They should have respected their own core principles and beliefs and have said to the Tories we are miles apart in terms of common policies and where we stand politically so we can't go against that and form a coalition.

The Tories could have gone into Government with a minority and the Libs could have supported them on what they thought was right and voted aginst them on what they didn't.

There is making compromises and selling out and they have sold out.

Nonsense. More indecisiveness at this point would be a disaster for the country. I'm glad that the party has been mature enough to see this.

[kidlewis]

So my question to lib voters who don't like this situation is this; what did you expect them to do?

They should have respected their own core principles and beliefs and have said to the Tories we are miles apart in terms of common policies and where we stand politically so we can't go against that and form a coalition.

The Tories could have gone into Government with a minority and the Libs could have supported them on what they thought was right and voted aginst them on what they didn't.

There is making compromises and selling out and they have sold out.

Nonsense. More indecisiveness at this point would be a disaster for the country. I'm glad that the party has been mature enough to see this.

well that is what I think, but I guess a lot of people think politicians purely think about their principles and party allegiances than them wanting to do what's best for Britain.

[drat01]

Liberal Democrat grassroots sounds unease over Conservative coalition

Liberal Democrat activists on the left of the party described a "feeling of unease" todayas the details of the coalition with the Tories emerged.

Campaigners who have spent years fighting the Conservative party in their constituencies said activists had been left "disorientated and deflated" and that some said they had already left the party.

"A lot of our people were not working with the expectation of us joining up with the Tories," one Lib Dem constituency chairman told the Guardian.

"People feel in a strange position today, there is a feeling that we did not expect to be here. I certainly think we will have a difficult time countering the message: 'Vote Lib Dem get Conservative.'"

The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that most local activists were prepared to wait and see how things played out in the weeks ahead.

"People are pretty upset but we do seem to have negotiated a good deal. The question now is whether, and how quickly, they are going to turn us over."

Other activists were more positive. Judith Jolly, Lib Dem constituency chair for Devon and Cornwall, said Clegg was "absolutely right" to push ahead with the coalition.

"We have got a lot of what we were campaigning for," she said. "I know a lot of voters are really upset and we did campaign damn hard against the Tories down here … but we have to be realistic and grown up about it."

Online there were harsher dissenting voices, with supporters and party activists saying they could not back the party in the future.

"I feel this will be nothing short of a disaster," said Jane Watkinson on her blog myliberaldemocratpoliticalramblings.

"I can never support a LibDem/Tory coalition. I genuinely think this is the start of a serious destruction of the Lib Dems … we are going to be seriously squeezed in the next election. Labour will replace us in the north – we have already lost control of councils such as Sheffield – and the Tories will replace us in the south. We are going to be the soft face of a nasty government."

Watkinson said it was obvious Clegg had gone into talks with the Labour party "not wanting a deal".

"Clegg has made his choice. He will get his power … but, he will lose a lot of the core. The core who have been so vigorously opposed to most of what the Tories stand for."

JennyForeigner, posting on the Liberal Democrat Voice website, said she had been an activist for 10 years and had spent the last two months campaigning for the party. "I'll be resigning my party membership at tomorrow's emergency local meeting. I wish them the best. I continue to hope that Lib Dem policies will be achieved. I hate Labour, I hate Ed Balls and the dogmatism and the secrecy and the sense of entitlement and the illiberalism and the wars. I'm going to absolutely hate the moment when I rejoin the Labour party and it's going to be tomorrow."

On the same website yoti Rawat said the Lib Dems had put power ahead of principle: "If politicians have to choose between their values and power, they go for power and leave values behind … I think Lib Dem have lost this great opportunity of complete electoral reform to achieve short-term goals … I will not vote Lib Dem in future."

Former Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell was keen to highlight Lib Dem anger yesterday, retweeting a series of messages which he claimed had been sent to him from disgruntled voters.

Bruce Burton contacted Campbell on Twitter to say: "I'm rejoining Labour tomorrow – wish I'd never left. Lib Dems will regret this for years to come."

Shona Smith said: "I've burned my Lib Dem membership. I will never forgive them for this."

Other voters who had backed the Lib Dems agreed. "I joined the Liberal Democrats because I believed this election would result in a hung parliament and that a Lab-Lib pact would be the best government to take Britain forward," said Kristofer Keane, a medical student at the University of Edinburgh. "I am not a Conservative, and Clegg, I am not supporting you."

George Ing, from Swindon, used his Twitter stream LiberalBird to express his unease. "Its worse than nothing. It forces electoral reform down the agenda and makes us look power hungry when we demand STV," said one tweet.

"Prime minister Cameron. Oh dear lord," said another.

The Libs are a party that is split now and as Mark says they could have "compromised" easily by allowing the Tory party to run as a minority and picked and chose on policies they supported and those they were against.

And KL - amazing how you change the "rules" so quickly - now where I have I seen that happen ?

[snowychap]

So you are suggesting that there ought to be no compromise? :?

where have I said that?

Well, you've pretty much condemnded the idea in your posts.

Lies, lies, lies. For a kick off.

[kidlewis]

Liberal Democrat grassroots sounds unease over Conservative coalition

Liberal Democrat activists on the left of the party described a "feeling of unease" todayas the details of the coalition with the Tories emerged.

Campaigners who have spent years fighting the Conservative party in their constituencies said activists had been left "disorientated and deflated" and that some said they had already left the party.

"A lot of our people were not working with the expectation of us joining up with the Tories," one Lib Dem constituency chairman told the Guardian.

"People feel in a strange position today, there is a feeling that we did not expect to be here. I certainly think we will have a difficult time countering the message: 'Vote Lib Dem get Conservative.'"

The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that most local activists were prepared to wait and see how things played out in the weeks ahead.

"People are pretty upset but we do seem to have negotiated a good deal. The question now is whether, and how quickly, they are going to turn us over."

Other activists were more positive. Judith Jolly, Lib Dem constituency chair for Devon and Cornwall, said Clegg was "absolutely right" to push ahead with the coalition.

"We have got a lot of what we were campaigning for," she said. "I know a lot of voters are really upset and we did campaign damn hard against the Tories down here … but we have to be realistic and grown up about it."

Online there were harsher dissenting voices, with supporters and party activists saying they could not back the party in the future.

"I feel this will be nothing short of a disaster," said Jane Watkinson on her blog myliberaldemocratpoliticalramblings.

"I can never support a LibDem/Tory coalition. I genuinely think this is the start of a serious destruction of the Lib Dems … we are going to be seriously squeezed in the next election. Labour will replace us in the north – we have already lost control of councils such as Sheffield – and the Tories will replace us in the south. We are going to be the soft face of a nasty government."

Watkinson said it was obvious Clegg had gone into talks with the Labour party "not wanting a deal".

"Clegg has made his choice. He will get his power … but, he will lose a lot of the core. The core who have been so vigorously opposed to most of what the Tories stand for."

JennyForeigner, posting on the Liberal Democrat Voice website, said she had been an activist for 10 years and had spent the last two months campaigning for the party. "I'll be resigning my party membership at tomorrow's emergency local meeting. I wish them the best. I continue to hope that Lib Dem policies will be achieved. I hate Labour, I hate Ed Balls and the dogmatism and the secrecy and the sense of entitlement and the illiberalism and the wars. I'm going to absolutely hate the moment when I rejoin the Labour party and it's going to be tomorrow."

On the same website yoti Rawat said the Lib Dems had put power ahead of principle: "If politicians have to choose between their values and power, they go for power and leave values behind … I think Lib Dem have lost this great opportunity of complete electoral reform to achieve short-term goals … I will not vote Lib Dem in future."

Former Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell was keen to highlight Lib Dem anger yesterday, retweeting a series of messages which he claimed had been sent to him from disgruntled voters.

Bruce Burton contacted Campbell on Twitter to say: "I'm rejoining Labour tomorrow – wish I'd never left. Lib Dems will regret this for years to come."

Shona Smith said: "I've burned my Lib Dem membership. I will never forgive them for this."

Other voters who had backed the Lib Dems agreed. "I joined the Liberal Democrats because I believed this election would result in a hung parliament and that a Lab-Lib pact would be the best government to take Britain forward," said Kristofer Keane, a medical student at the University of Edinburgh. "I am not a Conservative, and Clegg, I am not supporting you."

George Ing, from Swindon, used his Twitter stream LiberalBird to express his unease. "Its worse than nothing. It forces electoral reform down the agenda and makes us look power hungry when we demand STV," said one tweet.

"Prime minister Cameron. Oh dear lord," said another.

The Libs are a party that is split now and as Mark says they could have "compromised" easily by allowing the Tory party to run as a minority and picked and chose on policies they supported and those they were against.

And KL - amazing how you change the "rules" so quickly - now where I have I seen that happen ?

didn't even know there were any rules on talking about the opposition. so not really that amazing in regards to my stance on rules I didn't even know existed.

If the Libs expect anything more than what they have from the tories then they are in cloud cuckoo land. They got 57 seats and if they didn't want to be involved then they should have not sided with either party and left the country in a dangerous political position.

let their principles kill the country, awesome!

if the left leaning members of the lib dems or right members of the tory party don't want to be involved, they can man up and all leave the parties, they obviously care more about their principles than ensuring the parliament as a whole tries to be as strong as possible going forward.

let them call by-elections, I doubt many of them would end up retaining their seats, and if they do it's exactly the reason why the no confidence was raised to 55% to stop tories and lib dems mps who would rather see parliament effectively implode because they didn't get their way.

Tories you didn't get a majority - man up it's tough shit

Lib Dems - you won 57 seats, actually resulting in less Mps than before, so you're quite obviously not that great when it comes to the people otherwise you would have got 100 MP seats like the party hoped.

both of them need to Man Up and get on with it, if not quit politics and do what a lot of outgoing MPs do and wait in the wings to point the finger and say 'I Told you so'.

[saturdaygig]

So my question to lib voters who don't like this situation is this; what did you expect them to do?

They should have respected their own core principles and beliefs and have said to the Tories we are miles apart in terms of common policies

I think all three parties are more or less on the same ground - as Blair and now Cameron have learned only middle ground parties are electable in this country. They have quite a struggle finding something to be different about. If it came down to it you could have Con Lab deal easily enough, apart from the fact that so many of them would have bred in resistance to the idea.

[snowychap]

There is making compromises and selling out and they have sold out.

:crylaugh: