economic situation is dire

[Ads]

Cameron has made the right decision.

I am pleased that a main contributor to UK tax revenues will not be diluted nor one of the biggest contributors to our GDP undermined, by an insidiously anti-democratic and failing project.

Pity the poor people of Southern Europe in their slow death march into subrogation, with poverty thrust upon them by their puppet leaders because they have the audacity to not behave like Germans.

[tonyh29]

two posts in a row you brought up the BNP to suggest some form of Tory alliance , not sure why when we know that their core support comes from disillusioned labour supporters and even the last labour leader was borrowing slogans like "British jobs for British workers" off them

another post from Tony where he is making things up.

The BNP, UKIP and many in the Tory party share a lot of views on Europe. I know thhat you read the UKIP and Tory party websites, I suggest you look at the views of the BNP also. Its very interesting that this is certainly a common view that they share. You may find it embarrassing for the Tory party but hey ho as they say

I know you read dogging web sites but that could also be as unsubstantiated as your claim to know what web sites I visit... So maybe stick to facts rather than supposition ?

Remind the readers where the bnp won their seats .. Are they in the Tory hotbed of Yorkshire for example ... Must be a source of embarrassment to you but Eh oop as they say

[tonyh29]

The consensus tonight from those outside the Tory party is pretty much that Cameron has screwed up (again)

If Merkel and Cameron’s roles were switched you’d be hard pressed to see Germany signing into an agreement that it felt was not in its best interest. Why would anyone want to be pulled in closer to the Euro mess if they didn’t have to be ...so the question is who wants to be sitting at the same table as Germany and France these days anyway?

[peterms]

Cameron has made the right decision.

I am pleased that a main contributor to UK tax revenues will not be diluted nor one of the biggest contributors to our GDP undermined, by an insidiously anti-democratic and failing project.

Pity the poor people of Southern Europe in their slow death march into subrogation, with poverty thrust upon them by their puppet leaders because they have the audacity to not behave like Germans.

Cameron is a fool.

He has rightly refused to join the latest charade, but for the wrong reasons and in a way which marginalises us and neuters us for years to come.

As for the finance sector being a contributor to tax, in fact they are the source of most tax evasion, both in their own right and by facilitating others to cheat the rest of us.

And it's not just the southern Europeans who are on a slow march to subjugation - it's all of us, unless we stand up against the bankers and their lapdogs in parliament.

[kidlewis]

you could say in the same instance that no one actually cares what Ed Milliband thinks because he'd have gone alone with whatever was proposed because I doubt he'd be able to verbally muscle his way into Merkel' Skype list let alone on EU policy

we could always

[peterms]

we could always

Hannan is an idiot as well.

Can't spend your way out of recession? What, so the answer is to save your way out of recession? Yes, that'll do the trick. Should give a real boost to demand, that one.

The problem is exactly that people are saving not spending, so there is inadequate demand, so firms are not investing and laying people off, so everyone is cautious about the future and lacking confidence, so they don't spend and they save instead. And so it goes on.

In such a situation, the only agent that can break through the individually sensible but collectively mad consensus not to spend, is the government.

Hannan and his ilk not only don't see this, he goes to other countries to plead with them not to invest in government spending either. A total fruitcake. Should be sectioned.

[tonyh29]

Anyone watching news night ?

Spain and italy need to borrow 1 trillion euros to get them out of trouble... 500 bn of it comes from the EFSF which is in itself money borrowed by other euro countries that they themself are unable to pay back ... And some of the money comes from the IMF which is going to get money from Europe and then lend it back to Europe .. :confused:

[snowychap]

Cameron says its a shit idea

Did he? I thought he didn't go along with it because there weren't the appropriate concessions in it?

Indeed, haven't he and Osborne been encouraging those in the eurozone to move further towards fiscal union in the last few months?

[colhint]

two posts in a row you brought up the BNP to suggest some form of Tory alliance , not sure why when we know that their core support comes from disillusioned labour supporters and even the last labour leader was borrowing slogans like "British jobs for British workers" off them

another post from Tony where he is making things up.

The BNP, UKIP and many in the Tory party share a lot of views on Europe. I know thhat you read the UKIP and Tory party websites, I suggest you look at the views of the BNP also. Its very interesting that this is certainly a common view that they share. You may find it embarrassing for the Tory party but hey ho as they say

he is right though isn't he on P231 you did make consecutive posts suggesting an alliance between the Tories and BNP.

And the BNP have won seats such as Burnley Sandwell Dudley, Stoke and Dagenham, nearly all Labour strongholds. Which would suggest that more labour voters than Tory vote BNP.

And British jobs for British workers is on the BNP website, I abhor the BNP but went onto the website to check this out

[peterms]

Anyone watching news night ?

Spain and italy need to borrow 1 trillion euros to get them out of trouble... 500 bn of it comes from the EFSF which is in itself money borrowed by other euro countries that they themself are unable to pay back ... And some of the money comes from the IMF which is going to get money from Europe and then lend it back to Europe .. :confused:

Not watching Newsnight, but it's a lot more than that, and many more countries than those two. Many trillions.

Yes, they will all collude to disguise the nature of the problem by making deals to buy and sell the debt between them, without actually addressing the issue.

This sums it up quite nicely.

Everybody needs to sell their bonds/debt literally trillions over the next two years. My guess is they will all agree to buy each other’s bonds allowing everyone to claim to be fine, just fine. It is the classic life boat full of sailors drinking each others piss. Every morning everyone is dying of thirst but what do you know, every morning everybody has a full bowl they can generously offer to a friend.

[peterms]

Some positive news from Ireland.

Former Anglo Irish Bank boss Séan FitzPatrick arrested in Wicklow

Crisis-hit bank's former chairman Séan FitzPatrick detained for second time as police trawl through millions of emails

The former chairman of Anglo Irish Bank Séan FitzPatrick was arrested by fraud detectives at his Co Wicklow home on Friday morning.

The 63-year-old banker, who was previously arrested in 2010, was being held at Bray police station under section 4 of Ireland's Criminal Justice Act 1984, which means he can be questioned for up to 24 hours. The current inquiry is being carried out by officers from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

Their inquiries are centred on directors' loans at the time when FitzPatrick was in charge of the bank. In particular the unit is focusing on a €7bn (£6bn) deposit transfer between Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Life & Permanent building society, which is believed to have been used to conceal the state of the bank's books.

During the Irish property boom the Anglo Irish Bank became the preferred lender to builders and speculators. When the bubble burst three years ago, the bank was left heavily exposed and within a year was reporting losses of €12.7bn.

The last Fianna Fáil-led government pumped more than €10bn of taxpayers' money into the bank, which was later nationalised and renamed the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

When news spread that FitzPatrick was being detained in Bray, a seaside town in Wicklow, to the south of Dublin, a small band of protesters descended on the garda station, demanding prosecutions for bankers they say helped wreck the Irish economy. FitzPatrick and Anglo Irish Bank's former chief executive David Drumm have become national hate figures in the republic.

The detectives investigating the disgraced bank are now trawling through millions of emails from its former executives, garda sources confirmed.

One source told the Guardian that the inquiry team may have to examine up to 10m emails and other messages between Anglo executives before and after the bank went bust, as well as CD discs, some of which are encrypted.

Three files on the investigations into Anglo, now almost three years old, have been sent to the Irish department of public prosecutions. So far however no one has faced criminal charges in connection to the bank's collapse.

Irish banks came under further fire with an independent member of the Dáil claiming the Bank of Ireland was worse than the Black and Tans, the notorious British military auxiliaries who served in Ireland during the war of independence.

In an unprecedented outburst in the Dublin parliament, Mattie McGrath TD claimed "thugs" acting for the bailed-out bank had seized machinery from one of his constituents in Co Tipperary, a farmer who had been in business for 40 years.

He urged the public not to buy the seized machines at a forthcoming auction in the county. "I tell the people to stay away from those auctions. They are buying people's misery.

"The Black and Tans didn't do it," he added.

A small act, and years too late, but something at least.

And it's good to see that some activists have been pressing for this. Without this kind of pressure, the powers that be will leave their guilty neighbours and dinner guests well alone. We need to form lynch mobs, with pitchforks and burning torches.

Of course the level of illegal concealment of losses alleged here is far, far smaller than for many other financial institutions, in Ireland and elsewhere.

But it's a start.

[VILLAFC2000]

Wake up and smell the coffee sun beam...!

Quote from the Belgian PM.

" This is not an intelligent move"

Congratulations. You quote the leader of a country that hasn't had a government for nigh on a year. Advice on compromise politics from a Belgian politician is rather like receiving child care advice from another famous Belgian, Marc Dutroux.

And the rest of Europe what do they think...?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16114902

If Belgum is not you cup of tea, then how about Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, head of the Germany's FDP group, p, goes as far as to say it was

"a mistake to let the British into the EU".

[VILLAFC2000]

Even Churchill was pro Europe...!

[Awol]

Not surprising to log on and find cries of "Xenephobic", "little Englander" and the usual pathetic insults being thrown around by people who can't accept that their judgement about the EU has been proven wrong - and spectacularly so.

Cameron has just done what any remotely sane British PM would have done and protected the largest single UK industry from being raped, with the proceeds being used to prop up failing eurozone profligates. A financial transaction tax in Europe only would drive business from the City (which does a greater volume of financial transactions than the rest of Europe put together) outside the EU to Asia or the US who are not even entertaining the idea.

What about a super tax on luxury cars, Frau Merkel, or cheese and red wine, Mr Sarkosy? No, thought not.

Cameron has done the right thing, no question at all.

Laughable comments from AWOL, as usual in respect to Europe especially IMO.

Fair enough, please point out the factual inaccuracies in my post.

The consensus tonight from those outside the Tory party is pretty much that Cameron has screwed up (again) here and in protecting his interests for his party backers and pandering to the Eurosceptic elements rather than looking after the country's interests leaves the UK in a very weak position at a time when so many factors are dependent on us working with not against others in the world community.

So if you oppose Cameron’s actions then by default you feel he should have signed up to the outsourcing of UK financial regulation to an unelected, unaccountable body that will not work in the national interest of the UK or its people. That’s correct, right?

Here are a few thoughts from one of your political idols on that subject:

“I once developed little democratic questions, which I will put to you. If you meet a powerful person, ask them five questions. What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interest do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can I get rid of you? And if you can’t get rid of the people who govern you, they may be brilliant but it isn’t a democratic relationship, because if you can’t get rid of them they don’t have to listen to you.” - Tony Benn

Perhaps then, a belief in democratic politics and accountability is not the preserve of those you see as swivel-eyed fascists? Historically it seems that those who would remove democracy from their citizens and give power to the unelected are the fascists, not those who oppose them. It’s maybe worth noting that the current unelected leaders of Italy and Greece installed by Brussels are in fact bankers and graduates of the Goldman Sachs and ECB cabal.

Interesting that, isn’t it? You effectively want to remove powers to regulate bankers from those who are elected, then hand them to bankers and technocrats who are unelected...that will show those bastards in the finance sector who is boss..

You also seem to be missing the significant point that any transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels now requires a referendum, by law. For a number of years all major polls on the subject have shown that a clear majority of the British people would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. Therefore if Cameron had signed up to this (as you seem to suggest he should have) we would be looking at starting a process that would probably lead to our eventual exit from the EU altogether.

Not a bright position to take if you want the UK to remain in the EU, is it?

These are the actions of a "little englander" mentality

Drat’s definition of a ‘little Englander’: Someone who believes in representative government, democratic accountability and opposes direct rule by an unelected corporate and financial elite.

The definition of Fascism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship.

Are you sure you are on the right side of this argument, Drat?

[Awol]

Even Churchill was pro Europe...!

Or more accurately:

“We are with Europe but not of it; we are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.” — Winston Churchill, House of Commons on May 11, 1953.

The EU is undeniably on a trajectory that will spell the end of real democracy for its members. If you are not sure what will evolve when expediency replaces democracy I would suggest reading a short history of the 20th Century for a few pointers.

Our politicians may be crooks and thieves in the main but we can ultimately throw them out. Willingly moving down a path that removes the power to do that from the electorate is madness - and a receipe for dictatorship.

[thetrees]

Even Churchill was pro Europe...!

As Cameron is, but not on this point.

What was formed as an economic co-operation has turned into the vehicle for politicians with steamroller ambitions, and who have little or no regard for the democratic rights of its people.

So, using your historical analogy, the small players in Europe are long since vanquished, Sarkozy is Marshall Petain, and Merkel is Adolf Hitler.

Whether that casts Cameron as Churchill, I don't know.

Welcome to the Fourth Reich

[veloman]

Right, here is my definitive response to Cameron's decision, based on my vast knowledge of macro-economics based on intensive studies into the works of Keynes,Friedman and a touch of 'scientific management' from Taylor thrown in for good measure.

"If it is advocated by Cameron, it is undoubtably good news for his rich Tory mates and bad for the rest of us - and probably all the fault of Teachers anyway"

(all vast knowledge gleaned from 'Nutshell' series of teach-yourself economics) - perhaps the same one Cameron read !

[LondonLax]

I think it's easy to just brand the financial sector as some sort of parasite (after all, banker bashing is still the in thing isn't it?) but it's just not the case. It generates billions a year. I think if the financial sector went under a lot of people would soon realise just how important it is.

It generates billions by charging other people, not by producing anything.

There's a useful finance function, and there's the rest. The useful part is the bit they want to get away from. Too boring, doesn't make enough money. The other bit, the casino part, is worse than parasitic, it actively destabilises economies and causes massive damage, as we all know.

Banks create debt. That's what they do. That is their "product". The more they create, the richer they are. The overwhelming problem facing the world's economy is that they have been allowed to create so much debt that we are drowning in it. Great news for them, appalling for everyone else.

Don't confuse banker bashing (which is a suitable and appropriate response to the grotesque greed and irresponsibility of those at the top) with looking critically at the role the finance sector plays in the economy. For hundreds of years people have criticised the effect of usury and unearned income in stifling enterprise, and have sought ways to limit the damage created. Bankers and landlords, both are "rentiers" in this sense, living off charges they make to others who actually work. It's not a reaction to Fred the Shred and the rest of them, it's sound economic analysis conducted by many people over a very great length of time.

Except in our case it suck money and talent from other countries around the world and brings it in to the UK to be spent here in both tax revenues and goods and services.

It is a massive advantage the UK has and Merkel and Sarkozy have coveted the UK financial industry for a long time ..

[DanishVillan]

I think it's easy to just brand the financial sector as some sort of parasite (after all, banker bashing is still the in thing isn't it?) but it's just not the case. It generates billions a year. I think if the financial sector went under a lot of people would soon realise just how important it is.

It generates billions by charging other people, not by producing anything.

There's a useful finance function, and there's the rest. The useful part is the bit they want to get away from. Too boring, doesn't make enough money. The other bit, the casino part, is worse than parasitic, it actively destabilises economies and causes massive damage, as we all know.

Banks create debt. That's what they do. That is their "product". The more they create, the richer they are. The overwhelming problem facing the world's economy is that they have been allowed to create so much debt that we are drowning in it. Great news for them, appalling for everyone else.

Don't confuse banker bashing (which is a suitable and appropriate response to the grotesque greed and irresponsibility of those at the top) with looking critically at the role the finance sector plays in the economy. For hundreds of years people have criticised the effect of usury and unearned income in stifling enterprise, and have sought ways to limit the damage created. Bankers and landlords, both are "rentiers" in this sense, living off charges they make to others who actually work. It's not a reaction to Fred the Shred and the rest of them, it's sound economic analysis conducted by many people over a very great length of time.

Except in our case it suck money and talent from other countries around the world and brings it in to the UK to be spent here in both tax revenues and goods and services.

It is a massive advantage the UK has and Merkel and Sarkozy have coveted the UK financial industry for a long time ..

...And it also function as a safe haven for financial terrorists.

The money and talent of Icelandic bankers is indisputable. They cleared alot of (UK) accounts.

But lets not destroy their good life inside the City of London and focus on getting money out of ordinary people on Iceland.

[Awol]

...And it also function as a safe haven for financial terrorists

This will be the line taken by Merkosy to justify a needless further assault on the sovereignty of EU countries and the UK in particular.

France is just a bigger version of Italy and its major banks are leveraged to such a degree they make RBS look like a thrifty spinster. Those banks are even further in the merde, and for the same reasons as ours were - making ludicrous loans while holding an insufficient capital base and relying on short term funding from the markets.

It's worth noting that UK is demanding a higher capital base for its banks than the French want, - one of the aspects of the proposed Franco-German regulation Cameron rejected - lest anyone take a good look at their true levels of capitalisation.

So instead Sarkosy is hiding behind Teutonic skirts, poking his tongue out and blowing rasberries..but he knows the truth about the grave danger France's financial sector is in - hence the attempt to put UKPlc on the hook for either giving them even more money, or create a suitable scapegoat to blame when the Eurozone banking sector implodes.

In 2008 all we heard from across the Channel were moral lectures on the evil of Anglo-Saxon economics (not entirely without foundation either), no offers to chuck in a few quid to make sure we got through it. Now it transpires that they have been doing the same thing and suddenly the UK should be sending them buckets of cash to help out?

Haha. Nice one, Nicholas.