Imperialism

[sidcow]

@villakram

Can't repost what you said but this was my response:

Well I want the despicable French, Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and North Germans to pay for the destruction caused to my country. 

Your point is utterly irrelevant.  A ridiculous argument. 

The World operated differently a long long time ago and realised you can no longer just invade and take over another country. 

Ancient history has literally nothing to do with Russias current actions. But you know that full well don't you.

[sidcow]

As per above 

6 hours ago, villakram said:

You did all that. Just a long time ago.

tic, tok...

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

@villakram

You made some claims in the other thread and I’d like to hear your viewpoint. 
I ascertain that Gibraltar was given to the UK by Spain.  The Spanish Civil Wars of Succession refer.   You say it wasn’t.  Please explain how we got it?
You say we need to grant Australia and Canada their independence.   I say they are independent. I say the have their own laws, government, money and can remove the King as head of state at any time.   Please explain why they are not independent?   

The first verifiable sighting of the Falklands was by the British Navy.  It was uninhabited.  The first settlement on the Falklands was by the French.  It was uninhabited.  Argentina did not exist at this time.  Please explain how Argentina can own an uninhabited island settled by French before Argentina existed?   
————————————————-
With regard to the British Empire I shall use your twisted logic to explain things.  
It’s not our fault.  

Us peaceful Brits were invaded by the Normans in 1066.  They still occupy the country today.   So blame the French. 

However…..the Normans were actually Viking settlers.  So the French can blame a group of people from what we now call Scandinavia.  So blame the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. 

However…..the Viking races were heavily influenced and conquered by the people of what we now call Finland.  So blame the Finns.

However…….Russia claims Finland is part of Russia.  So the crimes of the British Empire were caused by Russians.  

See how easy it is.

[chrisp65]

As my lineage is a mix of Welsh and Cornish, I’m absolved from any imperial guilt or potential liability for financial reparations. So I’m happy to referee this one as a neutral if its needed.

[MakemineVanilla]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

As my lineage is a mix of Welsh and Cornish, I’m absolved from any imperial guilt or potential liability for financial reparations. So I’m happy to referee this one as a neutral if its needed.

Didn't the Welsh annex Patagonia, where gangs of rough sinewy men roamed the valleys, terrifying the locals with their close harmony singing?

[Rds1983]

3 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

@villakram

You made some claims in the other thread and I’d like to hear your viewpoint. 

I ascertain that Gibraltar was given to the UK by Spain.  The Spanish Civil Wars of Succession refer.   You say it wasn’t.  Please explain how we got it?

You say we need to grant Australia and Canada their independence.   I say they are independent. I say the have their own laws, government, money and can remove the King as head of state at any time.   Please explain why they are not independent?   

The first verifiable sighting of the Falklands was by the British Navy.  It was uninhabited.  The first settlement on the Falklands was by the French.  It was uninhabited.  Argentina did not exist at this time.  Please explain how Argentina can own an uninhabited island settled by French before Argentina existed?   
————————————————-
With regard to the British Empire I shall use your twisted logic to explain things.  
It’s not our fault.  

Us peaceful Brits were invaded by the Normans in 1066.  They still occupy the country today.   So blame the French. 

However…..the Normans were actually Viking settlers.  So the French can blame a group of people from what we now call Scandinavia.  So blame the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. 

However…..the Viking races were heavily influenced and conquered by the people of what we now call Finland.  So blame the Finns.

However…….Russia claims Finland is part of Russia.  So the crimes of the British Empire were caused by Russians.  

See how easy it is.

Personally I blame the Romans. I mean what did they ever do for us?

[chrisp65]

24 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Didn't the Welsh annex Patagonia, where gangs of rough sinewy men roamed the valleys, terrifying the locals with their close harmony singing?

Invited over by the Argentinian government.

Mashed the two flags up to show friendship.

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

21 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

Personally I blame the Romans. I mean what did they ever do for us?

Didn't the Brits revert to their old ways once the Romans left?

This might offer the basis of a defence for post-colonial chaos.

[chrisp65]

One of my nerdy side interests is the history of Ethiopia.

I love all the early Christian artwork and symbolism, the myth culture, and the whole rise and fall of Emperor Haile Salassie.

But the history goes back far enough, to be the Aksum Empire, and one of their sources of income that made them one of the most powerful empires ever on the continent was the trading of slaves. 

I’d be interested to know if anyone ever suggested Ethiopia needs to pay reparations for its 1,000 year history of slave trading.

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Invited over by the Argentinian government.

Mashed the two flags up to show friendship.

 

 

I think it was the philosopher Izzard who said that a flag was essential when making territorial claims!

[MakemineVanilla]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

One of my nerdy side interests is the history of Ethiopia.

I love all the early Christian artwork and symbolism, the myth culture, and the whole rise and fall of Emperor Haile Salassie.

But the history goes back far enough, to be the Aksum Empire, and one of their sources of income that made them one of the most powerful empires ever on the continent was the trading of slaves. 

I’d be interested to know if anyone ever suggested Ethiopia needs to pay reparations for its 1,000 year history of slave trading.

 

 

I think that when it comes to asking for reparations, the people being asked need to have both money and have inherited Protestant guilt.

[chrisp65]

I love a good flag, the variety of pirate flags is far better than the standard skull and cross bones default. Flags with dragons on are just the best. But bloody hell people get weird about flags. 

 

[bannedfromHandV]

3 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

@villakram

You made some claims in the other thread and I’d like to hear your viewpoint. 
I ascertain that Gibraltar was given to the UK by Spain.  The Spanish Civil Wars of Succession refer.   You say it wasn’t.  Please explain how we got it?
You say we need to grant Australia and Canada their independence.   I say they are independent. I say the have their own laws, government, money and can remove the King as head of state at any time.   Please explain why they are not independent?   

The first verifiable sighting of the Falklands was by the British Navy.  It was uninhabited.  The first settlement on the Falklands was by the French.  It was uninhabited.  Argentina did not exist at this time.  Please explain how Argentina can own an uninhabited island settled by French before Argentina existed?   
————————————————-
With regard to the British Empire I shall use your twisted logic to explain things.  
It’s not our fault.  

Us peaceful Brits were invaded by the Normans in 1066.  They still occupy the country today.   So blame the French. 

However…..the Normans were actually Viking settlers.  So the French can blame a group of people from what we now call Scandinavia.  So blame the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. 

However…..the Viking races were heavily influenced and conquered by the people of what we now call Finland.  So blame the Finns.

However…….Russia claims Finland is part of Russia.  So the crimes of the British Empire were caused by Russians.  

See how easy it is.

It’s difficult for some US folk to understand the concept of history I think, it’s why they all come over here losing their minds when they see a castle etc.

Its hard to comprehend stuff you don’t understand I guess.

[Rustibrooks]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

One of my nerdy side interests is the history of Ethiopia.

I love all the early Christian artwork and symbolism, the myth culture, and the whole rise and fall of Emperor Haile Salassie.

But the history goes back far enough, to be the Aksum Empire, and one of their sources of income that made them one of the most powerful empires ever on the continent was the trading of slaves. 

I’d be interested to know if anyone ever suggested Ethiopia needs to pay reparations for its 1,000 year history of slave trading.

 

 

I was under the impression that it was mainly Americans asking for reparations which I think is totally understandable, I thought most of the former British Empire Colonies/commonwealth countries were also asking for reparations for the ways the countries were left. Like for example one of the reasons Barbados wanted full independence was because the money they generate mostly ended up here (UK) so they were never really able to progress over years.

Not sure this also applies to Ethiopia as they are an East African nation, but my brother went to Ghana a few years ago and did a tour of the Cape Coast Castle. The tour guide he had was explaining the history of the Transatlantic slave trade and the guide basically said that other African nations had slaves before Europeans came, but they were under different conditions essentially they were extensions of tribes/families that could work their way out of slavery and still gain a higher place in the tribes class system. Whereas what happened in America was worse. That's not to say that slavery amongst African tribes was totally fine, but I think the guide was implying that African tribes didn't treat their slaves the same way that Americans did.

[robby b]

4 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The first verifiable sighting of the Falklands was by the British Navy.  It was uninhabited

I don't dispute that the Falklands were uninhabited when the British Navy first saw them as perhaps that's true. Can you be sure about that though? Could the British Navy be sure about that at the time? Did they search the islands thoroughly or just sail past them?

What you don't mention though is some 'Argentinian' people (from the mainland that is now Argentina) being on the islands when some British people eventually started to settle them. A small number of 'Argentinians' admittedly but still. There is a version of history about them being chased off the islands by some Brits.

It's hard or impossible to know sometimes which version of history is the correct one, or the least incorrect.

Edited March 14, 2023 by robby b

[chrisp65]

24 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I was under the impression that it was mainly Americans asking for reparations which I think is totally understandable, I thought most of the former British Empire Colonies/commonwealth countries were also asking for reparations for the ways the countries were left. Like for example one of the reasons Barbados wanted full independence was because the money they generate mostly ended up here (UK) so they were never really able to progress over years.

Not sure this also applies to Ethiopia as they are an East African nation, but my brother went to Ghana a few years ago and did a tour of the Cape Coast Castle. The tour guide he had was explaining the history of the Transatlantic slave trade and the guide basically said that other African nations had slaves before Europeans came, but they were under different conditions essentially they were extensions of tribes/families that could work their way out of slavery and still gain a higher place in the tribes class system. Whereas what happened in America was worse. That's not to say that slavery amongst African tribes was totally fine, but I think the guide was implying that African tribes didn't treat their slaves the same way that Americans did.

Hmmm, I’m not convinced there would be verifiable evidence that for a thousand years slaves were relatively well treated until the Europeans came along and spoiled it all. 

[Rustibrooks]

36 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Hmmm, I’m not convinced there would be verifiable evidence that for a thousand years slaves were relatively well treated until the Europeans came along and spoiled it all. 

Europeans done chattel slavery though, the slaves were never looked at as people and rather just property. Also the children of slaves would be born into slavery and their children too. In Africa I’m not sure if it was viewed the same especially if a person can work their way up a class system to no longer become a slave. 

[KentVillan]

Problem with historic grievances is they are never ending, and you can zoom in and out at different levels, and over different time frames.

The “great civilisations” that the European imperialists conquered and exploited were themselves built on conquest and exploitation.

At the same time, you can understand why people whose recent ancestors have been enslaved or exploited in this way would still be very justifiably angry about it. Imagine living alongside the descendants of the people who built their fortunes on your grandparents’ slave labour.

I don’t know what the answer is really, but I guess learning about and acknowledging it and not downplaying it is a good start. Western imperialism is also definitely not an excuse for what Russia is doing in Ukraine, and batshit whataboutery from anyone arguing otherwise.

[chrisp65]

20 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Europeans done chattel slavery though, the slaves were never looked at as people and rather just property. Also the children of slaves would be born into slavery and their children too. In Africa I’m not sure if it was viewed the same especially if a person can work their way up a class system to no longer become a slave. 

I’m no authority on this, but the Aksumite Empire has several tiers of slavery, from the temporary bonded slaves paying off debts, to the children of fighters that had no rights and were treated as property. They had records of slaves from 1500BC up to the 1940’s, so I think it’s a bit too easy to excuse or dismiss one version of slavery over another version of slavery. If the Eritreans raided here, killed my parents, took my kids and said they were slaves for two generations and then they could return home, I’m not sure I’d think that was much better than the old western colonial system. It would certainly inconvenience our economy.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, robby b said:

I don't dispute that the Falklands were uninhabited when the British Navy first saw them as perhaps that's true. Can you be sure about that though? Could the British Navy be sure about that at the time? Did they search the islands thoroughly or just sail past them?

What you don't mention though is some 'Argentinian' people (from the mainland that is now Argentina) being on the islands when some British people eventually started to settle them. A small number of 'Argentinians' admittedly but still. There is a version of history about them being chased off the islands by some Brits.

It's hard or impossible to know sometimes which version of history is the correct one, or the least incorrect.

I thought it was the Dutch, in 1600 who first found them. Nothing there but birds. Then 90 odd years later, the Brits found them, again, and named them, or named the water 'Falkland sound", then another 70 years and the French found them and actually colonised the uninhabited rocks. But they got cold and wet and sold the Islands to the Spanish. Then Spain and Britain had a fight, and then settled their differences ( the Brits having lost), but we were allowed back to live there under a treaty. But then the Brits left, because of a fight with America, you may have heard of, but "we" left behind a plaque asserting our ownership, like a sign on shop door saying "back in 10" . Then the Spanish also left, cold and wet, also leaving a plaque asserting their ownership. In 1820 an American pirate settled there, and claimed the islands for the Union of South America (which later became Argentina). Then later still, a German arrived there, asked both Britain and [Argentina] if he could settle there, what with it being deserted n'all. [Argentina] gave him permission to kill the seals for food and fur, but Britain didn't like that, because we wanted the seal fur. So the German guy calmed us down by asking us to protect him and the islands. Next the Pirate man and his crew raided some American ships and looted them etc. The Americans got cross about that and attacked and destroyed his colony and carted off the pirates to the US for some light punishment beating.

Next again, Argentina went there to set up a settlement, but a squabble amongst themselves saw the leader killed and the intended penal colony wasn't set up. At this point Britain got cross again, and gave the remaining Argentines on the islands a letter informing them that the King wished to exercise his sovereignty over the islands and requesting they leave. So in 1833 some of them left, not wanting a fight, what with there being hardly any of them there, and some of those that were, were mercenaries not from Argentina anyway. Some of them decided to stay. A mix of various nationals from all over. 22 people in total.

Next, after another year, Charles Darwin went there and found a decrepit, ruined little settlement with a handful of rogues and ne'redowells living there. On reporting this, the Brits sent a naval ship and a commander to look after the place and restore order. Which is how it remained until the Argentines invaded  in the 1980s, as a distraction from uprisings and protests in their country. Britain turned up and repelled the Argentines.

The people there in free and fair votes, have said they want to remain "British". And they do.