Windsor framework

[Johnnyp]

Hopefully some end in sight. Would love, as an Irishman,  to see how English people feel about NI unionists holding them to ransom for the last few years. Do you have an affinity with NI unionists ? Lots of English I’ve spoke to have said they’d hand the place back to the republic in the morning if they’d a choice.  The UK needs a solid relationship with the EU - that’s basic common sense. 

[sidcow]

13 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Hopefully some end in sight. Would love, as an Irishman,  to see how English people feel about NI unionists holding them to ransom for the last few years. Do you have an affinity with NI unionists ? Lots of English I’ve spoke to have said they’d hand the place back to the republic in the morning if they’d a choice.  The UK needs a solid relationship with the EU - that’s basic common sense. 

I don't know near enough about the politics and don't fully understand enough about the situation to really comment, but whichever was the path of least resistance would be fine by me. 

The question is, if it was handed to Ireland would the unionists become as militant as the Republicans have been.  If they would it's not really going to solve anything. 

I just wish people could rub along better without resorting to violence and murder. 

But I really don't spend much time thinking or worrying about it. Maybe because of my ignorance. 

But yes, it's absolutely essential for the UK to have a better relationship with the EU. I hope this does it. 

For me if the throbbers don't kick up too much of a fuss it proves they've realised Brexit is the disaster it is and their utopia is unachievable. 

If its true that this is going to improve the lot of most people. If this doesn't give the Unionists all that they want I hope they realise they realise that and just go with it. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by sidcow

[Johnnyp]

20 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I don't know near enough about the politics and don't fully understand enough about the situation to really comment, but whichever was the path of least resistance would be fine by me. 

The question is, if it was handed to Ireland would the unionists become as militant as the Republicans have been.  If they would it's not really going to solve anything. 

I just wish people could rub along better without resorting to violence and murder. 

But I really don't spend much time thinking or worrying about it. Maybe because of my ignorance. 

But yes, it's absolutely essential for the UK to have a better relationship with the EU. I hope this does it. 

For me if the throbbers don't kick up too much of a fuss it proves they've realised Brexit is the disaster it is and their utopia is unachievable. 

If its true that this is going to improve the lot of most people. If this doesn't give the Unionists all that they want I hope they realise they realise that and just go with it. 

 

I’m of the same mentality really. Ordinary people in NI have no appetite anymore for this nonsense with flags, rebel songs, orange marches etc. That’s stuff of yesteryear. There is ( an irrational one i think ) amongst unionists that if they were put into a United ireland against their will that Irish nationalists would do on to them what was done to nationalists in NI over the last 100 years. 

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, Johnnyp said:

Hopefully some end in sight. Would love, as an Irishman,  to see how English people feel about NI unionists holding them to ransom for the last few years. Do you have an affinity with NI unionists ? Lots of English I’ve spoke to have said they’d hand the place back to the republic in the morning if they’d a choice.  The UK needs a solid relationship with the EU - that’s basic common sense. 

Yeah, while I feel the union would be much diminished if Scotland left I'd personally not be overly bothered if Northern Ireland went its own way. Not only is the region a drain on the country's finances, it obviously has a lot of political issues even beyond the issues with the EU. But equally I'm not averse to them remaining part of the UK if they're not causing too much trouble.

What I've skim read of the Windsor Framework seems like a decent compromise, and Northern Ireland ends up getting the best of all worlds from both the UK and the EU to keep them sweet. If the unionists torpedo the deal despite that then frankly I'm all for throwing them under the bus to improve relations with the EU. And I imagine Labour will do exactly that if the matter isn't resolved by the time they take power.

Funnily enough I think I read the main reason why the average person in NI doesn't want to rejoin Ireland is just because they get good free healthcare as part of the UK. Is the healthcare situation much different in Ireland?

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Funnily enough I think I read the main reason why the average person in NI doesn't want to rejoin Ireland

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that is now a minority view

[villakram]

There are plans afoot to get things planned and properly thought about as a border poll will happen. The hope is that by having meetings with relevant parties (business leaders, farming community, health care, policing.. gulp) the practicalities of a new state could be thought about and discussed and not have the country end up in the silly situation the Scots put themselves in when they had their referendum a few years back. One can only hope that it works in some sense as there is so much downside to any political change in NI.

Hopefully, the British government will get this fudge/solution through and at least provide a stable ground around which the political parties in NI can now plan for the next election etc. It's disgraceful the lack of representation the people of that part of Ireland have suffered in recent years.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by villakram

[Panto_Villan]

35 minutes ago, bickster said:

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that is now a minority view

I've not seen it if so. Could you link some of it?

[sidcow]

55 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Funnily enough I think I read the main reason why the average person in NI doesn't want to rejoin Ireland is just because they get good free healthcare as part of the UK. Is the healthcare situation much different in Ireland?

Do they? **** me I might move there because I get diobolical healthcare. 

[Johnnyp]

It was extremely clever from Westminster and the EU to have Charles seen publicly meeting Von der Leyen. I sometime find NI unionists thick as pig shite. The poorest area in the UK, well known that catholics there are better educated, finish school, get good jobs. Their whole culture is wrapped around being loyal to a monarch - who’s just met the EU leader to copperfasten a deal that still means EU law will be governed in Northern Ireland. That must be pulling at the heart strings and some mental gymnastics going on They are running out of road. 

[choffer]

41 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

It was extremely clever from Westminster and the EU to have Charles seen publicly meeting Von der Leyen. I sometime find NI unionists thick as pig shite. The poorest area in the UK, well known that catholics there are better educated, finish school, get good jobs. Their whole culture is wrapped around being loyal to a monarch - who’s just met the EU leader to copperfasten a deal that still means EU law will be governed in Northern Ireland. That must be pulling at the heart strings and some mental gymnastics going on They are running out of road. 

There’ll be morons on both sides, unfortunately. History has shown over the last century that neither side are beyond reproach. 
It does appear though, that the majority of people in NI want to peacefully coexist and the younger generation who’ve no first-hand experience of The Troubles aren’t divided in the way their parents generation was. 
In years gone by, I visited Belfast occasionally. I don’t have the level of insight that many here might (I know there’s obviously a good number of northern Irish or second-generation on VT) but even 20 years ago when I was there, I couldn’t help but think those of the Protestant tradition were less persuasive in their arguments. At the time I should have been a natural ally to them given my Protestant upbringing but their position never rang true. 
It does seem to me that the likes of the DUP are fighting a losing battle and not engaging in particularly good faiths behaviour. This may have always been the case and maybe it’s just particularly visible now they’re in the minority. 

[Johnnyp]

31 minutes ago, choffer said:

There’ll be morons on both sides, unfortunately. History has shown over the last century that neither side are beyond reproach. 
It does appear though, that the majority of people in NI want to peacefully coexist and the younger generation who’ve no first-hand experience of The Troubles aren’t divided in the way their parents generation was. 
In years gone by, I visited Belfast occasionally. I don’t have the level of insight that many here might (I know there’s obviously a good number of northern Irish or second-generation on VT) but even 20 years ago when I was there, I couldn’t help but think those of the Protestant tradition were less persuasive in their arguments. At the time I should have been a natural ally to them given my Protestant upbringing but their position never rang true. 
It does seem to me that the likes of the DUP are fighting a losing battle and not engaging in particularly good faiths behaviour. This may have always been the case and maybe it’s just particularly visible now they’re in the minority. 

If they won the election last may they would of went back to stormont, guaranteed. The ironing out of the protocol would of went on. They’ll never publicly say it but they do not want to be in government with a nationalist first minister. They’d sooner burn the place down than govern under sinn fein rule. 

[Johnnyp]

36 minutes ago, choffer said:

There’ll be morons on both sides, unfortunately. History has shown over the last century that neither side are beyond reproach. 
It does appear though, that the majority of people in NI want to peacefully coexist and the younger generation who’ve no first-hand experience of The Troubles aren’t divided in the way their parents generation was. 
In years gone by, I visited Belfast occasionally. I don’t have the level of insight that many here might (I know there’s obviously a good number of northern Irish or second-generation on VT) but even 20 years ago when I was there, I couldn’t help but think those of the Protestant tradition were less persuasive in their arguments. At the time I should have been a natural ally to them given my Protestant upbringing but their position never rang true. 
It does seem to me that the likes of the DUP are fighting a losing battle and not engaging in particularly good faiths behaviour. This may have always been the case and maybe it’s just particularly visible now they’re in the minority. 

The hate will get more and more diluted over time. It can’t be sustained because how can a unionist kid/teen in 2023 have the same feel and authenticity of hatred that a unionist in the troubles would of had to nationalists and vice versa. You can’t keep passing your hate down. You’ll eventually bump into someone who stops and says “ nah, this is bullshit “ 

[KentVillan]

5 hours ago, Johnnyp said:

Hopefully some end in sight. Would love, as an Irishman,  to see how English people feel about NI unionists holding them to ransom for the last few years. Do you have an affinity with NI unionists ? Lots of English I’ve spoke to have said they’d hand the place back to the republic in the morning if they’d a choice.  The UK needs a solid relationship with the EU - that’s basic common sense. 

I think like a lot of people it's one of those debates, like Israel-Palestine, where you prefer not to get involved, because it seems like a mess of competing claims and counterclaims and historic grievances.

But I did spend a lot of time listening to the Troubles podcast on Spotify, presented by Oisin Feeney. I thought he did a good job of letting all sides give their accounts, and letting you empathise (if not sympathise) with everyone involved. Would really recommend it.

I personally feel as Ireland and the UK become much more similar, less religious, less sectarian, more liberal societies, the people who still want to fight to the death for Republicanism or Unionism seem a bit unhinged to me. I'm sympathetic to the non-violent, pro-compromise people on either side, and it's a shame the more fundamentalist, no surrender types are coming to the fore again.

Edit: and as to your original question. I don’t think many Brits, if they’re paying attention at all, have a lot of time for the DUP. They are so far removed from mainstream British politics and society, seem more typical of the US Bible Belt. Seem like the type of cretins Danny Dyer would do a doc on. But the old UUP were held in fairly high regard I think.

Edited February 28, 2023 by KentVillan

[Johnnyp]

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

I think like a lot of people it's one of those debates, like Israel-Palestine, where you prefer not to get involved, because it seems like a mess of competing claims and counterclaims and historic grievances.

But I did spend a lot of time listening to the Troubles podcast on Spotify, presented by Oisin Feeney. I thought he did a good job of letting all sides give their accounts, and letting you empathise (if not sympathise) with everyone involved. Would really recommend it.

I personally feel as Ireland and the UK become much more similar, less religious, less sectarian, more liberal societies, the people who still want to fight to the death for Republicanism or Unionism seem a bit unhinged to me. I'm sympathetic to the non-violent, pro-compromise people on either side, and it's a shame the more fundamentalist, no surrender types are coming to the fore again.

 

I do agree. I think eventually ( and I’ll be honest im unmoved by it as a southern Irelander ) we’ll eventually end up by proxy of some sort of United economic Ireland. I’ll never get the mindset of unionism. Loyal to a place that doesn’t even want you. Really. They don’t. 

[Johnnyp]

9 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I think like a lot of people it's one of those debates, like Israel-Palestine, where you prefer not to get involved, because it seems like a mess of competing claims and counterclaims and historic grievances.

But I did spend a lot of time listening to the Troubles podcast on Spotify, presented by Oisin Feeney. I thought he did a good job of letting all sides give their accounts, and letting you empathise (if not sympathise) with everyone involved. Would really recommend it.

I personally feel as Ireland and the UK become much more similar, less religious, less sectarian, more liberal societies, the people who still want to fight to the death for Republicanism or Unionism seem a bit unhinged to me. I'm sympathetic to the non-violent, pro-compromise people on either side, and it's a shame the more fundamentalist, no surrender types are coming to the fore again.

 

Unionism are petrified to come to the table and at least have a discussion of how a United Ireland would look. Dublin has even conceded there would likely be a new flag, anthem, constitution. It would look nothing like a republican united Ireland either. The UK that the NI unionists want to stay married to does simply not exist anymore . 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Johnnyp

[KentVillan]

Just now, Johnnyp said:

Unionism are petrified to come to the table and at least have a discussion of how a United Ireland would look. Dublin has even conceded there would likely be a new flag, anthem, constitution. It would look nothing like a republican unites Ireland either. The UK that the NI unionists want to stay married to does simply not exist anymore . 

The problem is, when people make it their life’s mission to achieve something or prevent something, it can be very hard to persuade them with logic or reason that their life’s mission has been a massive waste of time.

[Johnnyp]

10 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

The problem is, when people make it their life’s mission to achieve something or prevent something, it can be very hard to persuade them with logic or reason that their life’s mission has been a massive waste of time.

Huge dent to the ego - understandably.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

11 hours ago, Johnnyp said:

Hopefully some end in sight. Would love, as an Irishman,  to see how English people feel about NI unionists holding them to ransom for the last few years. Do you have an affinity with NI unionists ? Lots of English I’ve spoke to have said they’d hand the place back to the republic in the morning if they’d a choice.  The UK needs a solid relationship with the EU - that’s basic common sense. 

I wrote something very similar to the following on the Israel thread.  

People stop believing in gods and stories written down thousands of years ago.  

Without that conflict we would stand a better chance of resolving far more important and relevant problems. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mandy Lifeboats
Spelling mishsteaks

[bickster]

9 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

I've not seen it if so. Could you link some of it?

Can't find it right now but I'm fairly sure there was polling done last year sometime that put the reunification question and the results were something like 43/39/18 Join/stay/don't know

There was that along with the demographic changes including the growth of the population that don't identify as either catholic or protestant

[villa89]

The point about re-unification that people always miss is who exactly is going to pay for it. NI is a basket case economy propped up by billions of her majesty's pounds every year. The Republic can't afford to subsidise 6 counties like that.