HanoiVillan Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 40 minutes ago, Chindie said: The issue isn't that Israeli activity doesn't create anti-Semitism. It's that that isn't legitimate, correct, justifiable. Exactly this - and also, I would add one more thing, which is that said anti-semitism is also completely counter-productive to the supposed goals of most of the people engaging in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Enda said: I didn’t say they were slaves today, anymore than black people in America are slaves today. Slavery (abolished in the 1860s) is relevant to understanding today’s race relations in the United States, we can’t just ignore that history. Similarly, you can’t just ignore the effect of the pogroms or of course the Holocaust when thinking about Jews’ place in society. My mistake - black Americans and black folks here in the UK have parity. Silly me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: Agree on that - problem is any criticism of Israel is immediately confused with antisemitism - it scares people. And are you helping to resolve that confusion, or are you creating more of it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just now, HanoiVillan said: And are you helping to resolve that confusion, or are you creating more of it? And does bending over backwards not to to be accused of antisemitism whilst held to a high bar of what that definition actually is - actually do anything other than prevent criticism of Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted May 16, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jareth said: Agree on that - problem is any criticism of Israel is immediately confused with antisemitism - it scares people. Which is why it's so very important to be absolutely clear on what you're criticising. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just now, Jareth said: And does bending over backwards not to to be accused of antisemitism whilst held to a high bar of what that definition actually is - actually do anything other than prevent criticism of Israel? Yes, it absolutely does. If you cannot see how counter-productive being anti-semitic is in the effort to change Israeli government actions, I don't know how to help you. Does being anti-semitic help engage Jewish people anywhere in the world who disagree with Israeli government actions? No. Does being anti-semitic help engage non-Jewish people who don't want to be racist? No. Does being anti-semitic help defenders of the current Israeli government, who would rather talk about issues like anti-semitism in the Labour party rather than talking about the Israeli government blowing up apartment buildings in Gaza for no good reason? Yes. Seriously man, you need to have a long hard think about this, and stop trying to post your way through it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just now, Jareth said: And does bending over backwards not to to be accused of antisemitism whilst held to a high bar of what that definition actually is - actually do anything other than prevent criticism of Israel? Funny you think you have to bend over backwards to be not be accused of antisemitism. I’ve never had that problem. Look, Jews is London today are doing alright on average. Good for them. Just like lots of Chinese people are making waves in New York. It doesn’t mean there’s no discrimination or racism against Asians, and it definitely doesn’t mean that Jewish people should have no concerns about anti-semitism. It’s the wishy-washy conflation of Jews and Israel that’s a problem. It’s the same problem as JFK having to explain his Catholicism and whether he secretly took orders from the Pope. These questions just shouldn’t happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jareth said: My mistake - black Americans and black folks here in the UK have parity. Silly me. That’s your response to my comments, really? Okay, good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Yes, it absolutely does. If you cannot see how counter-productive being anti-semitic is in the effort to change Israeli government actions, I don't know how to help you. Does being anti-semitic help engage Jewish people anywhere in the world who disagree with Israeli government actions? No. Does being anti-semitic help engage non-Jewish people who don't want to be racist? No. Does being anti-semitic help defenders of the current Israeli government, who would rather talk about issues like anti-semitism in the Labour party rather than talking about the Israeli government blowing up apartment buildings in Gaza for no good reason? Yes. Seriously man, you need to have a long hard think about this, and stop trying to post your way through it. Christ - where is the actual antisemitism? Why are there a myriad of ways to be antisemitic but not Islamaphobic? Where is the discrimination in this country? This game is stitched up from the start - meanwhile there is a war developing and what makes the news on the BBC? Some dicks shouting abuse at people in Golders Green. It will never be possible to look at the issues in a cold hard light whilst faux offence is taken across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, Enda said: It’s the wishy-washy conflation of Jews and Israel that’s a problem. Israel has an apartheid system that gives power to jewish people over its muslim minority. Why is that wishy-washy or offensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 16, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jareth said: faux offence You keep digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just now, bickster said: You keep digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole Whilst I'm down there I'll have a chat with that massive antisemite Corbyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jareth said: Why are there a myriad of ways to be antisemitic but not Islamaphobic? Do you see a difference between the two? One is a group of people and the other is a religion. One is being against a group of people and the other a fear of a religion. And technically Arabs are semites too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jareth said: Whilst I'm down there I'll have a chat with that massive antisemite Corbyn. I don't think for one moment that Corbyn is confused about this in the way you seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 Just now, HanoiVillan said: I don't think for one moment that Corbyn is confused about this in the way you seem to be. Yet he made jewish people leave Britain as they feared for their safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 16, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 16, 2021 This discussion should probably be split out from what is actually the point of this topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jareth said: Israel has an apartheid system that gives power to jewish people over its muslim minority. Why is that wishy-washy or offensive? I do not blame all Protestants, including those in Germany and Canada, for the sectarian allocation of public housing in Belfast. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Jareth said: Yet he made jewish people leave Britain as they feared for their safety. I don't know who you think this is helping, but it isn't helping you, it isn't helping me, and it isn't helping the reputation of left-wing politics in the eyes of anybody reading it, and I am begging you once again to stop, think, and move away from the keyboard. I'm out. Please don't reply to this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 16, 2021 Author Share Posted May 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Enda said: I do not blame all Protestants, including those in Germany and Canada, for the sectarian allocation of public housing in Belfast. Quite right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 16, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chindie said: This discussion should probably be split out from what is actually the point of this topic. Done 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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