What is Anti-Semitism?

[Jareth]

For as long as I can remember, literally everyday there has been a story on the Guardian website that references either the holocaust or some sort of Jewish interest story - there is no Islam equivalent. It never stops being the case and I challenge anyone neutral to also notice this. My point is that there is a very good PR dept for Jewish interest Vs and especially Palestine interest. And no this is not antisemitic.

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, Jareth said:

For as long as I can remember, literally everyday there has been a story on the Guardian website that references either the holocaust or some sort of Jewish interest story - there is no Islam equivalent. It never stops being the case and I challenge anyone neutral to also notice this. My point is that there is a very good PR dept for Jewish interest Vs and especially Palestine interest. And no this is not antisemitic.

Well actually it is, conflating judaism with the state of Israel is antisemitic. Notice how you've phrased it as a religion vs a country. That is antisemitic, it is even specifically mentioned in the IHRA definition of Antisemitism.

Quote

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

UK Gov

I'm absolutely sure you haven't done it intentionally but what you've said, is antisemitic

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Well actually it is, conflating judaism with the state of Israel is antisemitic. Notice how you've phrased it as a religion vs a country. That is antisemitic, it is even specifically mentioned in the IHRA definition of Antisemitism.

UK Gov

I'm absolutely sure you haven't done it intentionally but what you've said, is antisemitic

Hmm, Judaism and Israel can not be conflated - depends on your definition doesn't it?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Hmm, Judaism and Israel can not be conflated - depends on your definition doesn't it?

No

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

No

Ok, Israel and Catholicism? 

It's becoming more and more insane 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Jareth

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Ok, Israel and Catholicism? 

Thats precisely it, you can't conflate those two for exactly the same reason

This is exactly why so many people on the left of British politics are AS

They just don't get what AS actually is

What you've done it is specifically stated in the globally accepted definition

You have to swap one word for another, if you'd put Israel there would be nothing wrong with what you'd said, I'd have agreed with it

[Jareth]

30 minutes ago, bickster said:

Thats precisely it, you can't conflate those two for exactly the same reason

This is exactly why so many people on the left of British politics are AS

They just don't get what AS actually is

What you've done it is specifically stated in the globally accepted definition

You have to swap one word for another, if you'd put Israel there would be nothing wrong with what you'd said, I'd have agreed with it

If they are so radically different, don't you think Israel gives Jewish people a bad name?

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

If they are so radically different, don't you think Israel gives Jewish people a bad name?

Its not an if. They are two different entities. One is a political construct, the other is a religion. No matter how intrinsically you think they are linked, they are separate concepts and should be treated as such

As many of your far left comrades will tell you, there are Jewish people opposed to the state of Israel, there are also Jewish People in Israel who oppose what the Israeli government is and has historically done to the Palestinian people. When you conflate the religion with the state you are including all those members of the religion who actually agree with you. That is why what you said is AS

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

If they are so radically different, don't you think Israel gives Jewish people a bad name?

Yes, it absolutely does - and indeed there are Jewish groups committed to publicly making this point and trying to distance themselves and the Jewish communities in the US and in this country from the state of Israel and its actions.

What complicates that more is that there are people within the Jewish communities in the UK and the US that consider any attack on Israel to be an attack on all Jews everywhere and that believes that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic - for those people, Israel is both a political state but also exists as a cultural principle.

Accusations of anti-semitism can be immensely powerful and unfortunately, the whole political and cultural battle built up around anti-semitism and accusations of anti-semitism makes it much, much more difficult for any sort of sensible conversation around Israel's war crimes to take place. The state of Israel is very aware of that and will shroud itself under the banner of anti-semitism at each and every available opportunity.

 

[OutByEaster?]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

As many of your far left comrades will tell you, there are Jewish people opposed to the state of Israel, there are also Jewish People in Israel who oppose what the Israeli government is and has historically done to the Palestinian people. 

That's a very strange thing to drag into this conversation.

I would think that there are people from all parts of the political spectrum who will be very happy to tell you those things - because they are true.

 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's a very strange thing to drag into this conversation.

I would think that there are people from all parts of the political spectrum who will be very happy to tell you those things - because they are true.

 

Not really when its addressed to someone whose politics clearly lie in that direction

[chrisp65]

It is very easy to conflate Jewish and Israeli.

It probably pays to keep in mind that 20% of Israeli passport holders are Muslim and it’s the current political alliance in power that seeks political advantage by bombing families.

It’s the same all over the world, all violence is directly attributable to politicians.

[Jareth]

21 minutes ago, bickster said:

Its not an if. They are two different entities. One is a political construct, the other is a religion. No matter how intrinsically you think they are linked, they are separate concepts and should be treated as such

It's as though people assume that an attack on Israel is a veiled attack on Jewish people - it is not. But they are completely joined. I feel sorry for sensible Israelis who say no war please, but they are marginalised - Israel is far right and the power there is far right. In fact the powerful Israelis are absolutely responsible for any rise in anti-Semitism through their actions. Defend Jewish people but condemn Israel. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Defend Jewish people but condemn Israel. 

That isn't what you typed in the intial post though. Like I said, if you'd replaced Jewish with Israel, I'd have agreed with you

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

It's as though people assume that an attack on Israel is a veiled attack on Jewish people - it is not. But they are completely joined. I feel sorry for sensible Israelis who say no war please, but they are marginalised - Israel is far right and the power there is far right. In fact the powerful Israelis are absolutely responsible for any rise in anti-Semitism through their actions. Defend Jewish people but condemn Israel. 

Mate, I'm pretty sure that's another anti-semitic trope

You need to read more about this before saying things I don't think you mean.

[Jareth]

Just now, bickster said:

That isn't what you typed in the intial post though. Like I said, if you'd replaced Jewish with Israel, I'd have agreed with you

But Israel is run by powerful far right Jews no? 

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

Mate, I'm pretty sure that's another anti-semitic trope

You need to read more about this before saying things I don't think you mean.

Netanyahu? 

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Netanyahu? 

The problem is the assertion that Jewish people (and here you are conflating Jewish people with particular Israeli politicians) are 'bringing their abuse on themselves'. This is not a standard you would apply to other races. If someone said to you 'I don't want to be racist to black people, but they don't help themselves sometimes do they' you wouldn't have a hard time recognising that was a deeply racist thing to say.

The actions of any one Jewish person, no matter how powerful or what role they occupy, do not legitimise, excuse or explain anti-Jewish bigotry.

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

But Israel is run by powerful far right Jews no? 

You really can't help yourself can you

[meregreen]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

But Israel is run by powerful far right Jews no? 

Uncomfortable with the fact you bring up their ethnicity. Israel is dominated politically at the moment by right wing politicians. Once you start down the road of linking their actions with their race rather than their political and moral stance, then you will not win any arguments.