What is Anti-Semitism?

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, Jareth said:

"It's an ethno-religious entity. It has elements of religion, race, culture... Basically it's more than just a religion."

What is Islam then?

 

Islam is similar, but without the elements of race.

You have to be careful with Israel and it's relationship with Jewishness. It's easy to fall into the trap that Jews = Israel. Israel is a state that (uniquely) happens to be Jewish. The actions of Israel are not the responsibility of Jews.

In essence collating Israel with all Jews is like blaming all Muslims for the actions of Saudi Arabia.

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Ok, Obama was elected to lead a predominately Black country that actually has racist policy creating an apartheid system where white folks are disadvantaged? Is this comparison hanging together?

You are once again confusing Jewishness as a race and religion on the one hand, and the policies of Israel as a country on the other, and I don't know how to make you stop doing it, but you really should.

[Jareth]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

You are once again confusing Jewishness as a race and religion on the one hand, and the policies of Israel as a country on the other, and I don't know how to make you stop doing it, but you really should.

But what about the black comparison? 

[Enda]

27 minutes ago, Jareth said:

"It's an ethno-religious entity. It has elements of religion, race, culture... Basically it's more than just a religion."

What is Islam then?

Think of Jews as the people that followed Moses out of Egypt and had babies together for generations. Lots of them kept that religious belief that divine intervention saved them (Jewish religion), but even if they became atheists they'd still be of the Jewish heritage/bloodline/race/whatever.

Islam is a religion founded in the 600s, which believes Mohammed was something like Jesus. Like most religions, Muslims aren't a people/race/bloodline because they never had an "out of Egypt" moment thousands of years ago. Only Jews can claim that sort of genetic lineage.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

But what about the black comparison? 

Xi Jinping is an Asian person. Some people don't like the things that he does. But it's not okay to be racist to Asian people because of Xi Jinping.

Barack Obama is an African American. Some people didn't like the things that he did. But it's not okay to be racist to black people/African Americans because of Barack Obama.

Benjamin Netanyahu is a Jew. Some people don't like the things that he does. But it's not okay to be racist to Jewish people because of Benjamin Netanyahu.

---------------------------

You need to get clear about this, for two reasons. Firstly, as someone who has an involvement in politics, if you traffic in anti-semitic tropes, even accidentally, you risk damaging yourself (your factional opponents will be only too glad to weaponise statements like these against you), the causes you represent (ditto) and more importantly, Jewish people themselves, many of whom have no affection for or agreement with the policies of the government of Israel.

Secondly, what happens when someone veers off like you are doing here, is that the debate becomes about 'who said what' rather than about the actions of the government of Israel. Right now, Netanyahu's defenders are on the back foot; it's hard for them to explain Israel's policies and put them in a favourable light. They would *much* rather be talking about people saying anti-semitic things. Don't let people who are perpetraring war crimes, or their defenders and apologists, get into their comfort zone.

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Xi Jinping is an Asian person. Some people don't like the things that he does. But it's not okay to be racist to Asian people because of Xi Jinping.

Barack Obama is an African American. Some people didn't like the things that he did. But it's not okay to be racist to black people/African Americans because of Barack Obama.

Benjamin Netanyahu is a Jew. Some people don't like the things that he does. But it's not okay to be racist to Jewish people because of Benjamin Netanyahu.

---------------------------

You need to get clear about this, for two reasons. Firstly, as someone who has an involvement in politics, if you traffic in anti-semitic tropes, even accidentally, you risk damaging yourself (your factional opponents will be only too glad to weaponise statements like these against you), the causes you represent (ditto) and more importantly, Jewish people themselves, many of whom have no affection for or agreement with the policies of the government of Israel.

Secondly, what happens when someone veers off like you are doing here, is that the debate becomes about 'who said what' rather than about the actions of the government of Israel. Right now, Netanyahu's defenders are on the back foot; it's hard for them to explain Israel's policies and put them in a favourable light. They would *much* rather be talking about people saying anti-semitic things. Don't let people who are perpetraring war crimes, or their defenders and apologists, get into their comfort zone.

I'm struggling to see anything I posted that was either untrue or veering off - there was no racism to Jewish people just criticism of Israel - which voted for Netanyahu - he was not simply parachuted in. On the black comparison - there is no luxury of being a subset of black - being Jewish is still being white and is most definitely not discriminated against - quite the opposite. 

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

I'm struggling to see anything I posted that was either untrue or veering off - there was no racism to Jewish people just criticism of Israel - which voted for Netanyahu

What you said was, 'powerful Israelis are absolutely responsible for any rise in anti-Semitism through their actions'. They are not, and it is anti-semitic to say that they are. Anti-semites are responsible for the rise in anti-semitism.

Powerful Israelis are responsible for their own actions, not for the hate of others that comes from a confusion between a race and religion on the one hand, and a country on the other.

[HanoiVillan]

9 minutes ago, Jareth said:

being Jewish is still being white and is most definitely not discriminated against - quite the opposite. 

I also need to add on the above that a] Jews can be and sometimes are discriminated against, and b] black Jews exist, and Jews may or may not consider themselves to be white.

[OutByEaster?]

This distinction is particularly important given the events of today in Golders Green where there have been groups of vehicles bearing Palestinian flags shouting at and threatening people in the street. The people they are shouting at aren't bombing Palestine, they aren't Israeli, they're British Jewish people - blaming them for the latest round of Israeli war crimes is inherently anti-semitic.

 

 

[bickster]

Just now, OutByEaster? said:

This distinction is particularly important given the events of today in Golders Green where there have been groups of vehicles bearing Palestinian flags shouting at and threatening people in the street. The people they are shouting at aren't bombing Palestine, they aren't Israeli, they're British Jewish people - blaming them for the latest round of Israeli war crimes is inherently anti-semitic.

 

 

Thats been happening for a couple of weeks I believe

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, bickster said:

Thats been happening for a couple of weeks I believe

Wan't aware of that, I've seen some stuff today which I think was a leftover from yesterday's protests but has definitely crossed a line.

 

[bickster]

Just now, OutByEaster? said:

Wan't aware of that, I've seen some stuff today which I think was a leftover from yesterday's protests but has definitely crossed a line.

 

Yep, I've seen tweets complaining about it happening to them, more than once in the last few weeks

[Jareth]

17 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

What you said was, 'powerful Israelis are absolutely responsible for any rise in anti-Semitism through their actions'. They are not, and it is anti-semitic to say that they are. Anti-semites are responsible for the rise in anti-semitism.

So the illegal actions of the Israeli government do not create antisemitism? Are you crazy? 

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

So the illegal actions of the Israeli government do not create antisemitism? Are you crazy? 

The issue isn't that Israeli activity doesn't create anti-Semitism. It's that that isn't legitimate, correct, justifiable.

[Enda]

37 minutes ago, Jareth said:

On the black comparison - there is no luxury of being a subset of black - being Jewish is still being white and is most definitely not discriminated against - quite the opposite. 

You can't be serious?

Throughout history Jews have been treated terribly in almost every country they set foot in. Nobody has had it harder than them. Thousands of years of being kicked, vilified, taxed, enslaved, all leading up to what we know ultimately happened in the twentieth century. Jews continue to be persecuted. I know people my age, 30ish, who were Jewish refugees from Russia. Madness to think Jews have it easy. To be honest I think it's a quite insular and short-sighted view as well.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Enda
I was too harsh initially

[chrisp65]

I had a book on Ethiopia and the Aksum Empire at Christmas. It’s a bit hard going, but there are very much such a thing as black Jews, or Ethiopian Jews, or Beta Israel or whatever you would want to label them. Recognised as Jewish and invited to relocate back to Israel if and when they so wish.

Possibly moved to Aksum 3,000 years ago.

[Jareth]

28 minutes ago, Enda said:

You can't be serious?

Throughout history Jews have been treated terribly in almost every country they set foot in. Nobody has had it harder than them. Thousands of years of being kicked, vilified, taxed, enslaved, all leading up to what we know ultimately happened in the twentieth century. Jews continue to be persecuted. I know people my age, 30ish, who were Jewish refugees from Russia. Madness to think Jews have it easy. To be honest I think it's a quite insular and short-sighted view as well.

Yes just ask anyone from Golders Green how they feel about stop and search. 

Also - how's that enslavement effecting Jewish people in today's society? 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Jareth

[chrisp65]

 

 

[Enda]

8 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Yes just ask anyone from Golders Green how they feel about stop and search. 

Also - how's that enslavement effecting Jewish people in today's society? 

I didn’t say they were slaves today, anymore than black people in America are slaves today. Slavery (abolished in the 1860s) is relevant to understanding today’s race relations in the United States, we can’t just ignore that history. Similarly, you can’t just ignore the effect of the pogroms or of course the Holocaust when thinking about Jews’ place in society.

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

Agree on that - problem is any criticism of Israel is immediately confused with antisemitism - it scares people.