Ratings & Reactions: Liverpool v Villa

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

If we play a counter long ball we need to play Davis or Wesley with Watkins and two combative types in midfield, Nakamba sitting and McGinn just in front of him, with hardworking wingers will work.

We lack a quality specialist destroyer type defensive midfielder (who can pass). Apart from Nakamba who isn't really good enough to be more than back up the rest of our midfielders are 8's. we have 4 8's which is a good number for 4-3-3, not so good for 4-2-3-1.

The way we use 4-2-3-1 is unorthodox. This is because a 4-2-3-1 is meant to give attacking freedom to the fullbacks. However our preferred 2 are 8's so we keep the fullbacks more like traditional fullbacks (rather than modern attacking fullbacks) so the two 6's (who are 8's really) can take it in turns to break forward as needed.

The problem with this Is the fullbacks in this formation are supposed to play as wing backs and offer an outlet wide so the wingers can play very narrow and be close to the striker. Instead our wingers have to stay wide and our striker gets isolated. Our 10 is constantly tracking back because we defend deep and invite teams on to us meaning he isn't getting close enough to the striker either. 

These problems are all manifested because we can't play our way past the high press so we are forced to play long more than we want, end up defending deeper than we want, and so isolating the wingers as well as the striker.

Our defensive play very pragmatic. Safety first for the most part. Many times we clear it instead trying to play it. This invites more pressure if our opponents are first to the loose ball. The mentality in our country is playing around at the back is too risky, but just clearing it is just as risky. Many of Liverpool's best chances came from them winning cleared balls in our own half. Just like the winner. It's simply are the players good enough, and coached well enough to play out. Ours aren't, and the midfielders aren't really ball winners either so clear it or play it we aren't really suitable.

Watch Man City, how easy they make playing out look. Press them high and they kill you as they cut right through the high press and then force opponents to go one for one as their widemen are left in no man's land and can't support their fullback. But they have the quality.

This is why Konsa wasn't picked for England the other day. He plays safety first. Last season he got caught trying to play the ball, this season he has simplified his game and focuses on not getting beat and not making mistakes. I agree with this as he is still developing. However he was touted as a modern ball playing cb when he joined and I believe he needs to add that element of risk back into his game next season, and we will be better off for it. 

The fullback tactics is simply because Targett is slow and Cash is new to Premier league football. With a quality pacy left back and letting Cash and Konsa off the leash a bit then we can elevate our passing and movement out of defense and this will help our midfield immensely and they get more space to play in and don't have spend most of their efforts on trying to win seconds balls.

A tall DM that is a destroyer and a passer will help us to play both ways. As cleared balls are after aerial balls so the winning those ball become more likely with an aerial presence and long balls against us will also be less effective. Passing from deep require and slighty different mindset and passing style. Short passes have to be safe passes, in one twos you are the pivot rather than the mover, then you are required to switch the play from one side to the other rather than looking to pass forward at every opportunity. A no 8 looks for the forward pass first (winger or striker) than to the fullback on his side or inside to the other 8 or 6. When they are one two's they are doing the give and go particularly in central areas (rather than being the pivot). 

Jack makes the 4-2-3-1 work purely because of A the space he creates for the 10. B the threat he pose means teams keep the RB back and tight to him. C his ability to carry the ball out his own half at pace and find a pass. Then he carry the play in the opposition third as he pops up all over the place pulling defenders here and there, play little no look passes and sudden burst of pace and give and goes. All of the creative onus he carries, put he is our only other defensive outlet other than the long ball to Watkins.

The whole tactical setup going forward is reliant on Jack. Without him we are literally one dimensional (hit it long to Watkins). El-Ghazi and Traore are missing a major trick in being poor headers of the ball. Both 6 footers, if we could hit long to them also we could make the long ball game work, they would also nearly double their goal output. Ronaldo added heading to his list of strengths and scored loads with his head. The perfect example of a 6 foot winger developing his heading and becoming a beast.

So I have waffled on too much!!

 

Good Post.....and all makes sense to me.

I will just add or support a couple of points....

• IMO We are not proficient enough at heading the ball, that is covering all scenarios, not good enough at winning the duels or not good enough at direction, when we do....we mostly scramble with it, very untidy, or get muscled out.
• That bugs me from some, because who has ever suggested a lump.....of course such a player needs to have the ability to pass and head the ball.
• I will go as far as to say, such a player will transform us, but at the same time acknowledging, we need talent in other area's, too.

I will go as far as to say, I will hang my bum out of the Co-op window, if we sign one.....so sure I am of it not being seen as a priority.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by TRO

[Philosopher]

2 hours ago, Talldarkandransome said:

See, it is possible to be critical without saying he's shite

The comment about not being a top manager is debatable. Most, if not all Top managers have huge finances and usually the best players money can buy. They arent necessarily massively better then everyone else, they just have better players to coach. 

Is Deano up there with Guardiola, obviously not. But considering the teams both have managed and the resources both have had, I think Deano is doing a great job. This is Villa remember, we're not a tinpot outfit stealing a living or treading water in the Premier league. We are Aston Villa, a partially awakened giant who are heading in the right direction. If Deano isn't the man to take us to the next level then so be it, but I really hope we do take that next step and it's Deano who takes us there

Top managers get the best out of their players and are able to merge the abilities of their players with the tactical needs of the system. The Guardiola's and his ilk have had money their whole career so can simply buy the right player for the tactics. Dean Smith hasn't had the blend of players in the squad to play the way he wants to. But he has a world class player that he has developed a tactical approach designed to function around him and his exceptional ability. Take that out and we are rudderless. I don’t criticise him for this. However a top coach would find a way to get results even without the main man. Or a top coach would develop a tactical approach that can still function without the main man. 

The win we have had without Jack apart from Leeds has been lucky and Leeds were terrible. Some of the draws were lucky also. Credit where it's due the defense has provided the foundation for everything, however I believe Terry has a lot to do with that also. But it is to Smiths credit that he listens and allows to Terry to influence things. Being a top manager isn't about doing everything yourself, it's about having a good team and being able delegate and acknowledging your mistakes and learn from them.

I never said he couldn't be a top coach in the future, but he isn't now. Until he achieves something more notable than one promotion he can't be classed as a top coach (Steve Bruce has 3 or 4 promotions to his name, Pulis 2 or 3, Warnock 2 or 3) . His entire time at Villa he has been overly reliant on Jack, I don't blame him as Jack exceptional. However he needs to show more. Next season he will have more quality and hopefully still have Jack. I want to see how he does.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Philosopher

[Philosopher]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Good Post.....and all makes sense to me.

I will just add or support a couple of points....

• IMO We are not proficient enough at heading the ball, that is covering all scenarios, not good enough at winning the duels or not good enough at direction, when we do....we mostly scramble with it, very untidy, or get muscled out.
• That bugs me from some, because who has ever suggested a lump.....of course such a player needs to have the ability to pass and head the ball.
• I will go as far as to say, such a player will transform us, but at the same time acknowledging, we need talent in other area's.

I will go as far as to say, I will hang my bum out of the Co-op window, if we sign one.....so sure I am of it not being seen as a priority.

 

All depends if we learn how to play out, if so then we may not need one. But I agree aerially we will be much better. On set pieces (defense and offense), defending long balls, winning second balls, we could even put him in the no 10 position and have him win long balls late in games if we need a goal.

I believe a passing coach is needed.

[juanpablosaliceband]

42 minutes ago, smg said:

Surely most goals conceded by all teams are a result of individual errors or lack of focus or are you saying that it’s only our players that do this ?

I guess I think some goals are more avoidable than others. And I think some of the last gasp goals we have conceded recently were particularly avoidable with a bit more aggression and desire to block the cross / shot. Other fans may be saying the same about their teams. 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Top managers get the best out of their players and are able to merge the abilities of their players with the tactical needs of the system. The top Guardiola and his ilk have had money their whole career so can simply but the right player for the tactics. Dean Smith hasn't had the blend of players in the squad to play the way he wants to. But he has a world class player that he has developed a tactical approach designed to function around his and his exceptional ability. Take that out and we a rudderless. I don’t criticise him for this. However a top coach would find a way to get results even without the main man. Or a top coach would develop a tactical approach that can still function without the main man. 

The win we have had without Jack apart from Leeds has been lucky and Leeds were terrible. Some of the draws were lucky also. Credit where it's due the defense has provided the foundation for everything, however I believe Terry has a lot to do with that also. But it is to Smiths credit that he listens and allows to Terry to influence things. Being a top manager isn't about doing everything yourself, it's about having a good team and being able delegate and acknowledging your mistakes and learn from them.

I never said he couldn't be a top coach in the future, but he isn't now. Until he achieves something more notable than one promotion he can't be classed as a top coach (Steve Bruce has 3 or 4 promotions to his name, Pulis 2 or 3, Warnock 2 or 3) . His entire time at Villa he has been overly reliant on Jack, I don't blame him as Jack exceptional. However he needs to show more. Next season he will have more quality and hopefully still have Jack. I want to see how he does.

Fair Comments.

I think Dean needs to add a dimension to his thinking....He clearly favours the attacking style and who would want any different, he has to be applauded for that.

But as the old famous Adage goes " You have to win the RIGHT to play football"......I don't think Dean has come to terms with that or has the players to implement it.

 am not convinced Dean will sign any players to help with that and I think, if anything it will be his undoing, if in fact an undoing is to come.

He has clearly taken so much of his football philosophy from his time at Brentford, that is quite understandable, but it needs further thought and I sincerley hope Dean has the vision to see it.

[skell]

3 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

a poor game that was pretty much a non event.

I can’t even pick a man of the match it was so nondescript , smith has his work cut out in the summer 

wrong formation and team again 

Right formation. Right team. What's the alterantive

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

All depends if we learn how to play out, if so then we may not need one. But I agree aerially we will be much better. On set pieces (defense and offense), defending long balls, winning second balls, we could even put him in the no 10 position and have him win long balls late in games if we need a goal.

I believe a passing coach is needed.

I thought Craig Shakspeare was that person....but we don't know what goes on at BMH.

I think we don't play out right, because we haven't got one proficient enough to trust.....what comes first the chicken or the egg?

[skell]

3 hours ago, jacketspuds said:

Martinez is a CL quality goalkeeper. So pleased we've got him.

Watkins pushed hard and did well for his goal.

The midfield needs so much and our wingers are shit.

Mings is not a leader either. Konsa is head and shoulders our best CB now.

Mings is absolutely a.leader. agreed our wingers are poor 

[Philosopher]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Fair Comments.

I think Dean needs to add a dimension to his thinking....He clearly favours the attacking style and who would want any different, he has to be applauded for that.

But as the old famous Adage goes " You have to win the RIGHT to play football"......I don't think Dean has come to terms with that or has the players to implement it.

 am not convinced Dean will sign any players to help with that and I think, if anything it will be his undoing, if in fact an undoing is to come.

He has clearly taken so much of his football philosophy from his time at Brentford, that is quite understandable, but it needs further thought and I sincerley hope Dean has the vision to see it.

For all the good work at Brentford they never got into the championship playoffs. Were always susceptible to goals against the run of play and rather gung ho. 

The defensive solidity we have enjoyed this season however suggests he has worked on that. So I don’t think it's the attacking intent that is the problem. I thinks it's partly getting the blend right, and currently not being able to adapt without the teams linchpin.

[skell]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I'll bet Dean wished he knew.

We had grealish

[Follyfoot]

37 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

If we play a counter long ball we need to play Davis or Wesley with Watkins and two combative types in midfield, Nakamba sitting and McGinn just in front of him, with hardworking wingers will work.

We lack a quality specialist destroyer type defensive midfielder (who can pass). Apart from Nakamba who isn't really good enough to be more than back up the rest of our midfielders are 8's. we have 4 8's which is a good number for 4-3-3, not so good for 4-2-3-1.

The way we use 4-2-3-1 is unorthodox. This is because a 4-2-3-1 is meant to give attacking freedom to the fullbacks. However our preferred 2 are 8's so we keep the fullbacks more like traditional fullbacks (rather than modern attacking fullbacks) so the two 6's (who are 8's really) can take it in turns to break forward as needed.

The problem with this Is the fullbacks in this formation are supposed to play as wing backs and offer an outlet wide so the wingers can play very narrow and be close to the striker. Instead our wingers have to stay wide and our striker gets isolated. Our 10 is constantly tracking back because we defend deep and invite teams on to us meaning he isn't getting close enough to the striker either. 

These problems are all manifested because we can't play our way past the high press so we are forced to play long more than we want, end up defending deeper than we want, and so isolating the wingers as well as the striker.

Our defensive play very pragmatic. Safety first for the most part. Many times we clear it instead trying to play it. This invites more pressure if our opponents are first to the loose ball. The mentality in our country is playing around at the back is too risky, but just clearing it is just as risky. Many of Liverpool's best chances came from them winning cleared balls in our own half. Just like the winner. It's simply are the players good enough, and coached well enough to play out. Ours aren't, and the midfielders aren't really ball winners either so clear it or play it we aren't really suitable.

Watch Man City, how easy they make playing out look. Press them high and they kill you as they cut right through the high press and then force opponents to go one for one as their widemen are left in no man's land and can't support their fullback. But they have the quality.

This is why Konsa wasn't picked for England the other day. He plays safety first. Last season he got caught trying to play the ball, this season he has simplified his game and focuses on not getting beat and not making mistakes. I agree with this as he is still developing. However he was touted as a modern ball playing cb when he joined and I believe he needs to add that element of risk back into his game next season, and we will be better off for it. 

The fullback tactics is simply because Targett is slow and Cash is new to Premier league football. With a quality pacy left back and letting Cash and Konsa off the leash a bit then we can elevate our passing and movement out of defense and this will help our midfield immensely and they get more space to play in and don't have spend most of their efforts on trying to win seconds balls.

A tall DM that is a destroyer and a passer will help us to play both ways. As cleared balls are after aerial balls so the winning those ball become more likely with an aerial presence and long balls against us will also be less effective. Passing from deep require and slighty different mindset and passing style. Short passes have to be safe passes, in one twos you are the pivot rather than the mover, then you are required to switch the play from one side to the other rather than looking to pass forward at every opportunity. A no 8 looks for the forward pass first (winger or striker) than to the fullback on his side or inside to the other 8 or 6. When they are one two's they are doing the give and go particularly in central areas (rather than being the pivot). 

Jack makes the 4-2-3-1 work purely because of A the space he creates for the 10. B the threat he pose means teams keep the RB back and tight to him. C his ability to carry the ball out his own half at pace and find a pass. Then he carry the play in the opposition third as he pops up all over the place pulling defenders here and there, play little no look passes and sudden burst of pace and give and goes. All of the creative onus he carries, put he is our only other defensive outlet other than the long ball to Watkins.

The whole tactical setup going forward is reliant on Jack. Without him we are literally one dimensional (hit it long to Watkins). El-Ghazi and Traore are missing a major trick in being poor headers of the ball. Both 6 footers, if we could hit long to them also we could make the long ball game work, they would also nearly double their goal output. Ronaldo added heading to his list of strengths and scored loads with his head. The perfect example of a 6 foot winger developing his heading and becoming a beast.

So I have waffled on too much!!

 

Not read any of this because it’s far too long for my simple mind but giving you a like anyway for having the Nouse to type it

[skell]

3 hours ago, flashingqwerty said:

Starting 11 was poor, most of the subs were poor, tactics were poor, most individual performances poor .

Our best cm pulled off when mcginn and luiz were anonymous most of the game.

All things point to a manager who has so little tactical ability and is completely out of his depth.

Shambolic and schoolboy level

Starting 11 good. The problem is that the players arent good enough. Compare salah to trez

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

For all the good work at Brentford they never got into the championship playoffs. Were always susceptible to goals against the run of play and rather gung ho. 

The defensive solidity we have enjoyed this season however suggests he has worked on that. So I don’t think it's the attacking intent that is the problem. I thinks it's partly getting the blend right, and currently not being able to adapt without the teams linchpin.

Its all about opinions.

I think you are right, he has improved the defence, in the context of the back 5......Has he improved the defensive capability of the Midfield?, I would have to leave a question mark over that....but I do believe, despite some stupid individual errors our back 5 has been instrumental in us securing many of the points that we have.

[Philosopher]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

I thought Craig Shakspeare was that person....but we don't know what goes on at BMH.

I think we don't play out right, because we haven't got one proficient enough to trust.....what comes first the chicken or the egg?

Considering playing out from the back was disastrous last season you maybe right. However coaches from Spain for example, drill passing patterns and scenarios into their players, to make the passing and movement natural. Our players clearly are looking for each other, which indicates 1, a lack of understanding between the players, and two they haven't been drilled enough.

I don't think out of Shakey's teams have been proficient in passing move. The counter attack has been their forte mostly.

[OutByEaster?]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

But as the old famous Adage goes " You have to win the RIGHT to play football"......I don't think Dean has come to terms with that or has the players to implement it.

I think we're doing alright at winning the right to play football, our problem today was that we had to win the right to play football over and over again because we kept giving the ball back. Plenty of effort, fight and spirit today, but it counts for nowt if you can't look after the ball. I think you said it earlier, we were sloppy.

 

[skell]

48 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

If we play a counter long ball we need to play Davis or Wesley with Watkins and two combative types in midfield, Nakamba sitting and McGinn just in front of him, with hardworking wingers will work.

We lack a quality specialist destroyer type defensive midfielder (who can pass). Apart from Nakamba who isn't really good enough to be more than back up the rest of our midfielders are 8's. we have 4 8's which is a good number for 4-3-3, not so good for 4-2-3-1.

The way we use 4-2-3-1 is unorthodox. This is because a 4-2-3-1 is meant to give attacking freedom to the fullbacks. However our preferred 2 are 8's so we keep the fullbacks more like traditional fullbacks (rather than modern attacking fullbacks) so the two 6's (who are 8's really) can take it in turns to break forward as needed.

The problem with this Is the fullbacks in this formation are supposed to play as wing backs and offer an outlet wide so the wingers can play very narrow and be close to the striker. Instead our wingers have to stay wide and our striker gets isolated. Our 10 is constantly tracking back because we defend deep and invite teams on to us meaning he isn't getting close enough to the striker either. 

These problems are all manifested because we can't play our way past the high press so we are forced to play long more than we want, end up defending deeper than we want, and so isolating the wingers as well as the striker.

Our defensive play very pragmatic. Safety first for the most part. Many times we clear it instead trying to play it. This invites more pressure if our opponents are first to the loose ball. The mentality in our country is playing around at the back is too risky, but just clearing it is just as risky. Many of Liverpool's best chances came from them winning cleared balls in our own half. Just like the winner. It's simply are the players good enough, and coached well enough to play out. Ours aren't, and the midfielders aren't really ball winners either so clear it or play it we aren't really suitable.

Watch Man City, how easy they make playing out look. Press them high and they kill you as they cut right through the high press and then force opponents to go one for one as their widemen are left in no man's land and can't support their fullback. But they have the quality.

This is why Konsa wasn't picked for England the other day. He plays safety first. Last season he got caught trying to play the ball, this season he has simplified his game and focuses on not getting beat and not making mistakes. I agree with this as he is still developing. However he was touted as a modern ball playing cb when he joined and I believe he needs to add that element of risk back into his game next season, and we will be better off for it. 

The fullback tactics is simply because Targett is slow and Cash is new to Premier league football. With a quality pacy left back and letting Cash and Konsa off the leash a bit then we can elevate our passing and movement out of defense and this will help our midfield immensely and they get more space to play in and don't have spend most of their efforts on trying to win seconds balls.

A tall DM that is a destroyer and a passer will help us to play both ways. As cleared balls are after aerial balls so the winning those ball become more likely with an aerial presence and long balls against us will also be less effective. Passing from deep require and slighty different mindset and passing style. Short passes have to be safe passes, in one twos you are the pivot rather than the mover, then you are required to switch the play from one side to the other rather than looking to pass forward at every opportunity. A no 8 looks for the forward pass first (winger or striker) than to the fullback on his side or inside to the other 8 or 6. When they are one two's they are doing the give and go particularly in central areas (rather than being the pivot). 

Jack makes the 4-2-3-1 work purely because of A the space he creates for the 10. B the threat he pose means teams keep the RB back and tight to him. C his ability to carry the ball out his own half at pace and find a pass. Then he carry the play in the opposition third as he pops up all over the place pulling defenders here and there, play little no look passes and sudden burst of pace and give and goes. All of the creative onus he carries, put he is our only other defensive outlet other than the long ball to Watkins.

The whole tactical setup going forward is reliant on Jack. Without him we are literally one dimensional (hit it long to Watkins). El-Ghazi and Traore are missing a major trick in being poor headers of the ball. Both 6 footers, if we could hit long to them also we could make the long ball game work, they would also nearly double their goal output. Ronaldo added heading to his list of strengths and scored loads with his head. The perfect example of a 6 foot winger developing his heading and becoming a beast.

So I have waffled on too much!!

 

I love this post and it is spot on

 We.absolutely need a dominant midfielder, we have for 3 years. This would clearly help massivley. However, I'm going to simplify your post because I believe that having 2 quality wingers would mean that all the above problems would be solved.

Basically, quite rightly no one (players or fans) has confidence in elghazi or trez.or.traore. If we had 2 quality players in these positions and Grealish as a 10 it would allow these players to receive the ball,  retain the ball and make.something happen. The full backs would push on with confidence. We would attack with purpose. The problem would be solved.

[TRO]

49 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

You will have to pardon me for being negative, but we are an absolutely shit side at the moment.

Not because we were poor against Liverpool; we have been poor against any team we have come up against recently.

I can barely be bothered to watch at the moment, and I have become inured to defeat.

We will have to spend big again in the summer. We have too many substandard players. We cannot replace them all at once, so we will need patience.

We have a few diamonds; Grealish; Watkins; Cash; Konsa; Martinez; Targett. The rest - meh.

I think we do some things well and some things poor.....and sadly, most games lately the same things mainfest themselves, consistently.

However, I will say this....If Jack Grealish is the answer to our plight, are we watching the detail of the other players sufficiently enough when he is playing or are we just transfixed on Jack, and fail to see their deficiencies or attributes

just asking?

[vreitti]

This thread should be renamed "ratings and overreactions".

Honestly I despair. Why y'all support Villa, I will never understand. 

 

[skell]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its all about opinions.

I think you are right, he has improved the defence, in the context of the back 5......Has he improved the defensive capability of the Midfield?, I would have to leave a question mark over that....but I do believe, despite some stupid individual errors our back 5 has been instrumental in us securing many of the points that we have.

If you look at how Luiz improved at the end of.last year then yes he has improved players. The fact he wanted to sign Phillips means that he saw this as area to improve. We.need to buy someone . You cant coach nakamba to be a top player

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, vreitti said:

This thread should be renamed "ratings and overreactions".

Honestly I despair. Why y'all support Villa, I will never understand. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, vreitti said:

This thread should be renamed "ratings and overreactions".

Honestly I despair. Why y'all support Villa, I will never understand. 

 

or Ratings ,Reactions and discussions.

just read the ones where the posters wax lyrical over our defeat....and ignore the rest, that predominately make sense.

I thought, it might be a bit heavy going for some.

Edited April 10, 2021 by TRO