Team shape, tactics and personnel

[onmeedson]

You hear quote's that it's the new way of playing but it's just Don Howe at Arsenal and you have to find a Tony Adams to perfect it.

[MWARLEY2]

Its all about the stats in a good way . His 1000 games as a manager has taught him that this is how he wants to play because the chances are we will win more often then not. We are not dealing with a manager who is being risky. He is in fact being the opposite. Its risky to give up room for the opposition to play through the midfield. That said if we could get in a rb and lb with Kyle Walker and Alphonso Davies pace then i would be happier  

 

[DJBOB]

We’ve seen Unai not using a high line plenty of times, more so in games we’re leading but mostly dependent on the opponent. 
 
Im sure we won’t see that high of a line against Everton.

Most top teams use a high line. The personnel we currently have doesn’t suit it perfectly but they are improving at it. 

I watched a bit of West Ham vs Liverpool and West Ham were in their miserly 451 low block and eventually lost. 
 
There is a time and a place to set up like West Ham and get results but Unai isn’t going to do that every game whereas you’ll almost always see Moyes set up his low block against most sides. 

[LxYoungAVFC]

Not going to criticize Emery at all and he obviously knows better, but in my opinion our forward line should look more like this in most premier league games:

Diaby     Zaniolo     Ramsey

              Watkins

Obviously it's early days but I think Diaby and Zaniolo are limited in their current positions. 

Zaniolo should be playing off Watkins and getting into more central positions around the box, receive passes that lead to shooting opportunities, using his strength and technichal ability on the turn, lay off, play a one two etc. 

With Diaby we have one of the fastest players in the league but we're not using his pace to our advantage consistently. Currently he drifts in and out of games. Yes he still has an impact but I think we could get more out of him by playing him further right. I'd like to see him on the ball more, running at defenders and causing havoc down that flank.

[DJBOB]

I think we should also see Diaby more on the flank and in the first 30 minutes against Chelsea, Diaby was playing wider right with McGinn playing in the half space closer to Watkins. But he didn't get involved much there either.

I don't know - I go back and forth about it. The thing is that he's such a good decision maker that it's almost a waste to have him out wide where he's going to get the fewest touches of the ball. Emery wants him on the ball a lot because he makes the right decision 9/10 times whereas Zaniolo is confident and strong but is still very slow in his decision making and, to be honest, has never had the reputation of picking the right option.

Diaby out wide can also be more limiting in that opponents can pin him against the sideline more. In the center and because he's good with both feet - he can pull the opponents in different ways. The thing where I'm most concerned about Diaby is building out against a high press. Because of his build, he doesn't have that ability to hold up the ball under pressure from a CB usually. I think it might make more sense to have Zaniolo as part of the two up top in the build up because he can hold the ball up under pressure and after the first 15-20 minutes, we started making an effort of going to Zaniolo when building out of the high press against Chelsea because he was able to hold it up and move us upfield. Then, in settled possession, Zaniolo can shift out wide with Diaby going in the middle. So there's a couple of options there.

But I do agree that it should be those 3 - Zaniolo, Diaby, and JJ attacking with Watkins. That's going to be our prime output lineup.

Edited September 26, 2023 by DJBOB

[Monkeypuzzle]

6 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Its all about the stats in a good way . His 1000 games as a manager has taught him that this is how he wants to play because the chances are we will win more often then not. We are not dealing with a manager who is being risky. He is in fact being the opposite. Its risky to give up room for the opposition to play through the midfield. That said if we could get in a rb and lb with Kyle Walker and Alphonso Davies pace then i would be happier  

 

Like Moreno?

[TRO]

I seem to remember a game in 2015 May 16 to be precise, we played Southampton away and Lost 6-1 Jores Okore and Ron Vlarr ( concrete Ron) was our centre backs that day

Sadio Mane got a hat-trick in 3 Minutes..and Shane Long got 2.....my point is, its nothing new...... we was as open that day as we was at St James's and Anfield, this season.

The popular opinion in the after match analysis, was it, it was the highline that caused our downfall, that was played that day under stewardship of Tim Sherwood...Tactics Tim as some derisively called him....he didn't last long after that.

I am not a great believer in blaming systems....but you have to know how to play them to maximise the benefit.

I only hope UE has a plan to make it work.....12 points from 18 is a good start, but the highline at present, makes me nervy....and I have seen it before, undo us.

[DJBOB]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

I seem to remember a game in 2015 May 16 to be precise, we played Southampton away and Lost 6-1 Jores Okore and Ron Vlarr ( concrete Ron) was our centre backs that day

Sadio Mane got a hat-trick in 3 Minutes..and Shane Long got 2.....my point is, its nothing new...... we was as open that day as we was at St James's and Anfield, this season.

The popular opinion in the after match analysis, was it, it was the highline that caused our downfall, that was played that day under stewardship of Tim Sherwood...Tactics Tim as some derisively called him....he didn't last long after that.

I am not a great believer in blaming systems....but you have to know how to play them to maximise the benefit.

I only hope UE has a plan to make it work.....12 points from 18 is a good start, but the highline at present, makes me nervy....and I have seen it before, undo us.

I don't think we should really be able to relate the two together given the qualify of our own team and the manager at the time.

Differing players on the defending line, lack of cohesion, and an unsettled starting XI have more to do with the goals allowed than the deployment of the high line.

 

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I don't think we should really be able to relate the two together given the qualify of our own team and the manager at the time.

Differing players on the defending line, lack of cohesion, and an unsettled starting XI have more to do with the goals allowed than the deployment of the high line.

 

could well be, but I still see danger with it.

You say we have better players now, than then, I agree....but so have the opposition too.

Look, Liverpool have been criticised for it....and here is what Klopp Said.

“The high line is only a risk if we don't have pressure on the ball. If we have a high line and we don't have any pressure, yes, then it is a risk – but it's usually not the case.

Jurgen Klopp

PS One without the other makes me Nervy.

Edited September 27, 2023 by TRO

[LxYoungAVFC]

I hate the walking the ball to the half way line at a snail's pace.

Recently teams have just been letting us keep the ball until somewhere around the half way line before they start to press aggressively.

I feel what we're trying to do is like boxers in the first round trying to figure out distance before upping the tempo and taking calculated risks.

But we're taking way too long to recognize the opposition's patterns. You can't play like that until the 70th minute. Eventually, especially against good teams, you'll be forced into making a mistake, get punished and have to play catch up.

[DJBOB]

The thing about the second squad is that I don't think they can play the same slow build up that the first squad can.

I talked about in Warsaw, the cascading weak links the rotation created.

Olsen - can't pass and is panicked when pressed

Dendoncker - always has at least one bad back pass on him

Tielemans - can't beat his man and easy to bypass

Duran - young but unable to get the ball to stick to him when holding it up

Bailey - somehow always injured and never been able to hold it up under pressure

So we have a system where we want to play slow to attract pressure and then use a quick combination to build out quickly and create opportunities. The problem with the second XI is that the other team knows this and have specific pressing triggers. When Olsen gets the ball, rush him like crazy because he will lose the ball immediately or make a colossal mistake. If Dendoncker has the ball, press him hard because he might make a mistake. Frustrate Duran. Overrun Tielemans.

The chain is only as strong as the weakest link and while the first XI can hold strong like they did versus Chelsea, the second XI can be picked apart.

[Indigo]

Another issue I think we have is that in a time in football where many of the top teams have such an emphasis on general athleticism, pace and power, we're somewhat going the opposite way. When games get a bit gritty like tonight you really see that so many of the squad are slow and easily bullied, which doubly doesn't help matters when some of them out there clearly aren't well suited to the system.

 

 

As a side note can we also please get another right back in ASAP.

[andym]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

The thing about the second squad is that I don't think they can play the same slow build up that the first squad can.

To be fair with injuries its sort of been the 3rd level players mixed with 1st teamers who probably have an eye on the weekend's game.

Missing Mings, Moreno and Buendia, with Ramsey only just back and Carlos picking up niggles isn't ideal when you need to rotate.

[DJBOB]

4 minutes ago, andym said:

To be fair with injuries its sort of been the 3rd level players mixed with 1st teamers who probably have an eye on the weekend's game.

Missing Mings, Moreno and Buendia, with Ramsey only just back and Carlos picking up niggles isn't ideal when you need to rotate.

True and we’ve been unfortunate both with the timing and nature of those injuries. 

[sidcow]

Someone is going to have to explain to me what our tactics were to score a goal today because we were utterly clueless in how to create any openings. 

We were slow and ponderous. There was absolutely no attacking through the middle. Duran made forward run after forward run and not once did anyone try to pick him out. 

Every quick breakaway ended with the attacker stopping and turning allowing Everton to reset.. Literally every breakaway. 

We therefore rely on fullbacks for wing play and they constantly refused to take their man on or put a cross in. This is I assume the instructions to them. 

So the upshot is we had zero way to actually attack.  Just launch the odd ball forward (overhit every time) when our passing around at the back breaks down..... If we don't just give it straight to them.

Speaking of which passing around at the back is fine, everyone does it now but I don't see any other team play themselves into trouble with it SO often. 

The idea is to pass it around to exploit space as they come at you.  But other teams pass it around crisply, moving the ball quickly and if no space becomes available then get it forwards more conventially. 

Our system is to stand with the ball at your feet till the last possible second allowing the attackers to get right at you then move it on in a panicked way to someone else who is also already under pressure.   I've never seen a team get into so much self inflicted trouble at the back. 

And on personnel we have **** up royally in the middle of the park.  We've got forward players galore. We can mix it up, mix it down and mix it around. Rotate, chop and change from any number of options. 

But in midfield we've got zero creativity, zero guile, no spark. We had no contingency for losing Buendia. No one else can thread it through. No one hustles the opposition midfield getting in their face running like a loon and stopping them playing. 

Basically we've got some massive issues and anything other then the strongest team we can put out is asking for a loss, and even with our current strongest set there is a Liverpool or a Newcastle waiting to happen, and let's not pretend we didn't get out of jail against Palace the other week. 

A lot of cracks have been papered over recently. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by sidcow

[DJBOB]

I think the answer is right there in that unless it’s the strongest XI, there is a struggle. 
 
Conveniently did not have to face that problem last year because we only had to focus on the league and now it’s an issue. 
 
The system itself is high risk because it puts players on islands and forces the opponent to stretch and try to bait them into duels. 
 
And no doubt about it, against Warsaw and Everton, we are losing man vs man in key areas. 
 
But you are right that the lack of a Buendia and JJ replacement is hurting us. Zaniolo has done it a handful of times but the ability to connect midfield to forward hasn’t been replicated consistently - and for all his numerous strengths, Diaby has not fulfilled that role either. 

[TomC]

We have five more midweek games in the UECL before the next transfer window. Rotation will continue to be an issue. Here's the situation as I see it. I'm talking about before the next window; I'm not discussing transfer targets. I'm going to divide into the back four, double pivot, and (regardless of configuration) the attacking four.

Rotation has been a problem in the back four because of the Mings, Diego, and Moreno injuries. However, Diego and Moreno should be back soon enough. Even if you write off Chambers (probably fair) and Lenglet (probably not fair), we should have enough to get by. Moreno and Digne can rotate at left back. Cash, Diego, Pau, and Konsa can rotate in the other three slots (Cash-Diego-Pau-left back, Cash-Diego-Konsa-LB, Cash Pau-Konsa-LB, Konsa-Pau-Diego-LB).

We have plenty of options for the front four: Watkins, Duran, Diaby, Zaniolo, JJ, McGinn, Bailey (unless tonight's injury turns out to be serious), maybe Traore.

It's the double pivot that has me worried. Other than LB, it's probably the most demanding position in our system. Doug and Kamara can't play every game. So who do you rotate? Tielemans? It seems pretty obvious that he was bought for the role. While I don't think his other performances have been as awful as some have said, he hasn't looked great, and it sounds like he hit a new low in tonight's match (which I missed). I'm not going to write him off so soon, but his rumoured attitude problems are worrisome; attitude is a lot harder to change than form. Donck? I thought he was generally competent last year, but he's a definite fall-off in quality, and he has mistakes in him, which have come back to bite us twice now. McGinn? Sure, he can play in the double pivot, but the Doug-McGinn combination didn't work that well when Deano ran the double piivot. Maybe Kamara-McGinn would be a more balanced combo, but then who subs for Kamara when he needs a break?

 

[Zatman]

9 hours ago, LxYoungAVFC said:

I hate the walking the ball to the half way line at a snail's pace.

Recently teams have just been letting us keep the ball until somewhere around the half way line before they start to press aggressively.

I feel what we're trying to do is like boxers in the first round trying to figure out distance before upping the tempo and taking calculated risks.

But we're taking way too long to recognize the opposition's patterns. You can't play like that until the 70th minute. Eventually, especially against good teams, you'll be forced into making a mistake, get punished and have to play catch up.

Its how most of the top teams play. Difference is Man City play this way but are a lot more fluid as have been doing it for years. We are pretty much starting from scratch while also dealing with injuries

[Chicken Field]

The only thing I struggle to understand with our tactics currently is playing Zaniola on the left and Diaby up top. Zaniola does not have the qualites to play on the left imo, he seems to have the qualities to shine up top, great hold up play, small tricks and passing. Diaby is struggling to find any room to manouvre, so that he can unleash his blistering pace.

Altough Unai has proven time and again to be the mastermind, so there are probably reasons for it. 

[Paul33]

The last three games have seen an alarming fear among our players of giving the ball away which, in turn, is drowning us as an attacking force. I get that Emery bases everything on keeping possession and you see him ripping in to players who dare to play long balls but the players look terrified to try anything adventurous, always choosing to play the easy ball sideways or, more often, backwards. Last night, everything ended up back with Konsa. Even when we had dead ball situations up front, the ball ended up going back to Konsa and the attacking opportunity was lost.

Our more creative players (eg: Luiz and ...... errrr ...... Torres ?) are too deep to create forward threats and the #10 role where such creativity needs to come from ...... is vacant. I get that Buendia is absent but somebody has to play the #10 role or you just end up with Duran and Watkins being completely absent from the game.

We desperately need a Maddison type player who always looks to make things happen whether by stepping around players or by making ambitious passes but Emery would never touch Maddison because his playmaking gambles mean that he occasionaly gives away possession and he can't deal with that.

The obsession of putting possession ahead of the game's fundamentals of actually scoring more goals than the opposition, has to change ..... the balance is all wrong as typified by the last 10 minutes at Chelsea and the last 10 minutes last night where we spent most of the time triangular passing at the back when we desperately needed the ball at the other end of the pitch.

Big game on Saturday ...... Emery needs to adapt his style because teams are starting to work it out and use it to their advantage.