Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TomC]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

Blame the statisticians. 
 
I don’t recall the exact numbers but the chances of scoring from a set piece corner are so high that most teams prioritize defending with everyone available. 

I don't doubt the statisticians, but...from what I recall, a goal results from about 1 in every 20 corners. I'd be curious what the percentages are for scoring when you leave a man near the halfway line.

It seems to me that if the attacking team puts all 10 men in the box on a corner, you could still cover them with 9 men + the GK, and leave the man at the halfway line. More likely, they can't afford to leave nobody back, so you're going to have 9 vs. 9 + GK in the box.

 

[alreadyexists]

I thought it was interesting how we clearly missed Buendia against Newcastle as the midfield and forward lines were completely isolated and the Newcastle high press meant we couldn’t link anything up well. And then against Everton McGinn and Diaby both sort of filled that role in that they hung in that gap between their defence and midfield and provided a link between the mids and forwards. I think Zaniolo will fit in that role well too, just to help link that forward play up. 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, alreadyexists said:

I thought it was interesting how we clearly missed Buendia against Newcastle as the midfield and forward lines were completely isolated and the Newcastle high press meant we couldn’t link anything up well. And then against Everton McGinn and Diaby both sort of filled that role in that they hung in that gap between their defence and midfield and provided a link between the mids and forwards. I think Zaniolo will fit in that role well too, just to help link that forward play up. 

There were a myriad of circumstances around Newcastle but chiefly among them the late developing Buendia injury and then the Mings injury. Couple that with the set piece goal + Konsa error and the score line made it look worse than it was.

Don't get me wrong - Newcastle had the better of us and Howe deployed a different build up that didn't suit the way we lined up.

But the match at 2-1 was largely competitive and hardly a walk in the park like we did vs Everton.

We struggled to build out of the Newcastle high press because Bailey couldn't get it to stick (versus McGinn holding off Burn during our home fixture) and McGinn was not fully comfortable on the left coming in on his less favored foot. With Everton applying zero pressure on our CB's, we had the run of VP to pick out our passes.

[Monkeypuzzle]

A quick analysis of the players we have for each position we play (not new formations that we don't use).

GK - Martinez, Olsen - Nothing to discuss. We all know who is first and how much the drop off is in quality.

RB - Cash, Chambers - Cash has been great for us since he arrived but has injuries and dips in form where it would be nice to rotate him with another quality player. Unfortunately, we have Chambers, who can fill in for a few games but I would not want to face a season with him as our starting player. * New player needed.

RCB - Konsa, Carlos - Two great players competing and rotating with each other. Carlos can even comfortably fit in the other side if needed, perfect with Mings'injury.

LCB - Mings, Torres - As above. Sadly Mings is injured at present but between Torres and Carlos we have cover. Most teams cannot boast the quality of our three fit centre backs, let alone all four when fit. No new additions needed here. Technically we still have Hause too, but he's injured and not in Unai's thoughts I don't think.

LB - Moreno, Digne - Moreno we a signing that few people thought we needed but he has revolutionised the way we play. Digne is a great competing player, offering a slightly more defensive, crossing alternative to Moreno's driving runs! If Digne leaves, as reported we need an equally good player in to replace him. If he stays, great!

DM - Kamara, Dendoncker - Two great defensive midfielders, with one clearly ahead in the pecking order. However either is perfectly capable of playing against a top team.

CM - Luiz, Tielemans - Two amazing players who can dictate the play in a game. Both are potential match winners and this choice makes you want to play both each game! We also have Iroegbunam, who we think is injured, but I think he is more likely to be sold with a buyback clause based on recent transfer behaviour.

RW/RM - Diaby, Bailey - There's no doubt that Bailey plays better out on the right than when he was used as a CF behind Watkins. So far Diaby has been used in the CF role but with Zaniolo's arrival I can see him playing on the right or competing for that CF role still. He may even do both within a game. McGinn can also play here but looks even better in that CF role. Same can be said for Zaniolo. There is also Traore, but I think he will be sold at the first opportunity as he is now 4th/5th choice for this spot.

LM/LAM - Ramsey, Buendia - Two quality players with different styles but both to great effect. Ramsey carries and drives in to the box with the ball, Buendia plays great through balls with amazing vision. Both work their butts off to press and harass the opposition when out of possession too. Sadly, with both being injured at the moment we are playing McGinn here and he is closest to Ramsey in style. Going forward it may well be a three way struggle between them for this spot! Coutinho can also play here or at CF but his constant injuries have seen him out far more than he is available and fit to play.

CF - Zaniolo, McGinn - As stated already this is a position currently played by Diaby, and boy does he look good there. Maybe it will be Zaniolo who plays on the right instead, we will have to wait and see. McGinn was playing great on the right last season but with Baily struggling in the middle, they swapped, and what a difference it made, with both players improving. This seems to be our captain's best position but the versatility that we now possess makes for mixing and matching across the three positions behind the striker. Technically we also have Coutinho for this role if he can stay fit but I think he will be sold ASAP as he is never fit!

ST - Watkins, Duran - Watkins has been great under Emery and we are so lucky that he hasn't had any big injury absences. Duran is young and raw but we have high hopes for him. The drop off in quality is quite big at the moment and maybe another striker is planned, especially with Archer leaving. * New player needed.

 

So in summary:

• Better reserve keeper to replace Olsen would be nice but not a priority it seems.
• New right back to replace Chambers seems obvious but no apparent links?
• New left back seems to be in the mix, but not an obvious requirement to most.
• Iroegbunam possibly moving on when fit with buyback clause inserted, based on other outgoings.
• Traore, Hause and Coutinho can all be moved on with no need of replacement when everyone is fit.
• Possibly a new striker whilst Duran is developing.

In theory, with Mings, Moreno, Ramsey, Dendoncker, Buendia all fit we have a great squad with two players for each position with only three obvious drops in quality at GK, RB and ST in that cover. Worth mentioning that those three (Olsen, Chambers and Duran) all have international experience! We are very lucky to have this squad guys. Any new additions are just cherries on the top. No wonder players like Ramsey, Philogene-Bidace and Archer have to be sold as the depth of quality is so great at the moment.

[bobzy]

Messing up the Archer thread with my thoughts on squad depth so may as well go here

Personally think we need some RB/CB cover more than CF.  We essentially have Cash, Chambers, Konsa, Carlos and Torres as our players across 3 positions - with Carlos coming back from a major injury.  I guess maybe Dendoncker can be a make shift centre back if needed?

[CVByrne]

21 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Messing up the Archer thread with my thoughts on squad depth so may as well go here

Personally think we need some RB/CB cover more than CF.  We essentially have Cash, Chambers, Konsa, Carlos and Torres as our players across 3 positions - with Carlos coming back from a major injury.  I guess maybe Dendoncker can be a make shift centre back if needed?

Yeah my thinking is Dendonker can play CB Konsa/Chambers can play RB. So we have 8 players for 4 positions

I think Moreno, Pau, Carlos, Konsa will be played from time to time with Cash rested.

I think essentially what Emery wants is an attacking RB/RWB and a defensive RCB/RB as the two options for RB

Edited August 23, 2023 by CVByrne

[duke313]

1 hour ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

A quick analysis of the players we have for each position we play (not new formations that we don't use).

GK - Martinez, Olsen - Nothing to discuss. We all know who is first and how much the drop off is in quality.

RB - Cash, Chambers - Cash has been great for us since he arrived but has injuries and dips in form where it would be nice to rotate him with another quality player. Unfortunately, we have Chambers, who can fill in for a few games but I would not want to face a season with him as our starting player. * New player needed.

RCB - Konsa, Carlos - Two great players competing and rotating with each other. Carlos can even comfortably fit in the other side if needed, perfect with Mings'injury.

LCB - Mings, Torres - As above. Sadly Mings is injured at present but between Torres and Carlos we have cover. Most teams cannot boast the quality of our three fit centre backs, let alone all four when fit. No new additions needed here. Technically we still have Hause too, but he's injured and not in Unai's thoughts I don't think.

LB - Moreno, Digne - Moreno we a signing that few people thought we needed but he has revolutionised the way we play. Digne is a great competing player, offering a slightly more defensive, crossing alternative to Moreno's driving runs! If Digne leaves, as reported we need an equally good player in to replace him. If he stays, great!

DM - Kamara, Dendoncker - Two great defensive midfielders, with one clearly ahead in the pecking order. However either is perfectly capable of playing against a top team.

CM - Luiz, Tielemans - Two amazing players who can dictate the play in a game. Both are potential match winners and this choice makes you want to play both each game! We also have Iroegbunam, who we think is injured, but I think he is more likely to be sold with a buyback clause based on recent transfer behaviour.

RW/RM - Diaby, Bailey - There's no doubt that Bailey plays better out on the right than when he was used as a CF behind Watkins. So far Diaby has been used in the CF role but with Zaniolo's arrival I can see him playing on the right or competing for that CF role still. He may even do both within a game. McGinn can also play here but looks even better in that CF role. Same can be said for Zaniolo. There is also Traore, but I think he will be sold at the first opportunity as he is now 4th/5th choice for this spot.

LM/LAM - Ramsey, Buendia - Two quality players with different styles but both to great effect. Ramsey carries and drives in to the box with the ball, Buendia plays great through balls with amazing vision. Both work their butts off to press and harass the opposition when out of possession too. Sadly, with both being injured at the moment we are playing McGinn here and he is closest to Ramsey in style. Going forward it may well be a three way struggle between them for this spot! Coutinho can also play here or at CF but his constant injuries have seen him out far more than he is available and fit to play.

CF - Zaniolo, McGinn - As stated already this is a position currently played by Diaby, and boy does he look good there. Maybe it will be Zaniolo who plays on the right instead, we will have to wait and see. McGinn was playing great on the right last season but with Baily struggling in the middle, they swapped, and what a difference it made, with both players improving. This seems to be our captain's best position but the versatility that we now possess makes for mixing and matching across the three positions behind the striker. Technically we also have Coutinho for this role if he can stay fit but I think he will be sold ASAP as he is never fit!

ST - Watkins, Duran - Watkins has been great under Emery and we are so lucky that he hasn't had any big injury absences. Duran is young and raw but we have high hopes for him. The drop off in quality is quite big at the moment and maybe another striker is planned, especially with Archer leaving. * New player needed.

 

So in summary:

• Better reserve keeper to replace Olsen would be nice but not a priority it seems.
• New right back to replace Chambers seems obvious but no apparent links?
• New left back seems to be in the mix, but not an obvious requirement to most.
• Iroegbunam possibly moving on when fit with buyback clause inserted, based on other outgoings.
• Traore, Hause and Coutinho can all be moved on with no need of replacement when everyone is fit.
• Possibly a new striker whilst Duran is developing.

In theory, with Mings, Moreno, Ramsey, Dendoncker, Buendia all fit we have a great squad with two players for each position with only three obvious drops in quality at GK, RB and ST in that cover. Worth mentioning that those three (Olsen, Chambers and Duran) all have international experience! We are very lucky to have this squad guys. Any new additions are just cherries on the top. No wonder players like Ramsey, Philogene-Bidace and Archer have to be sold as the depth of quality is so great at the moment.

Agree with the incomings, a striker, right back and a left back if Digne leaves.  Think we are light at LM with Buendia out, Ramsey will be back and McGinn can fill in, but I wouldn't be relaying on Coutinho in that position.  Zaniolo/Diaby/Bailey could possibly play there, but they are better further forward.

[Monkeypuzzle]

22 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Agree with the incomings, a striker, right back and a left back if Digne leaves.  Think we are light at LM with Buendia out, Ramsey will be back and McGinn can fill in, but I wouldn't be relaying on Coutinho in that position.  Zaniolo/Diaby/Bailey could possibly play there, but they are better further forward.

Yes but we are only light in defence and LM temporarily! For one season, or a few weeks in Ramsey's case, we can cope with what we have. I don't even think a loan is vital in either position!

Edited August 23, 2023 by Monkeypuzzle

[Marka Ragnos]

Villa getting all kinds of attention this week -- this time, it's Emery's "box midfield" approach.

Quote

 

Tactical analysis: How Man City, Brighton, Aston Villa are using the 'box midfield' to slice open opposition Manchester City, Brighton and Aston Villa are perfecting the use of the 'box midfield', a playing style that has reignited the game and is here to stay; we look at the tactic - and its potential pitfalls ...

... But it is not only the very best teams in the league who are adopting a different strategy to find space in between the lines using a box midfield - and there are variations on precisely who fills the four positions.

During the opening two weekends of the season, Brighton boss Roberto De Zerbi and Aston Villa's Unai Emery have both enjoyed success in using this tactical trend. ...

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[allani]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

The most obvious position I see him playing is the support striker behind Watkins. This would mean Diaby would move out to one of the wide positions though and that seems a bit of a shame given he’s started the season so well as the SS. Great to have options either way. 

If you look at the way that Ollie, Diaby and Bailey have played this season - they seem to drift between positions throughout the game.  So even if Zaniolo "starts" more as a 10 there will be times that Ollie drifts left and he ends up more as a 9 and times tha Diaby comes more central and he drifts right into a "wider" position.  Everton and Hibs both struggled with us having two advanced attackers on the right and ended up leaving us with masses of space down the left that Digne has been able to exploit.

[MWARLEY2]

Current squad when fit( and leaving out Ty and Emi) isnt too bad at all and i have not included Phil either  

Especially if we have 2 more players in like i suspect. 

Watkins      NEW ST          Duran

JJ               Bailey

McGinn     Zaniolo

Diaby         Traore

Kamara    Dendoncker      Iroegbunam? 

Luiz          Tielemans

Moreno    Digne

Torres      Carlos

Konsa     

Cash       Chambers

Emi         Olsen                Marshall  

  . Theres a load of flexibility up top with Diaby Zaniolo McGinn equally happy in multiple positions. Adding another striker would just round it off perfectly.  

We have 4 more than decent centre mids plus McGinn can drop in there if needed. 

Ty is a big loss at the back but again we have flexibility there with Carlos being able to play left or right side and Konsa able to play rb or cb. Donk and Kamara can play cb if needed as well. 

[TomC]

6 hours ago, allani said:

If you look at the way that Ollie, Diaby and Bailey have played this season - they seem to drift between positions throughout the game.  So even if Zaniolo "starts" more as a 10 there will be times that Ollie drifts left and he ends up more as a 9 and times tha Diaby comes more central and he drifts right into a "wider" position.  Everton and Hibs both struggled with us having two advanced attackers on the right and ended up leaving us with masses of space down the left that Digne has been able to exploit.

Agreed. The best way to describe our attack is 3-2-5. Against Everton, the front line was Digne-McGinn-Watkins-Diaby-Bailey. The players in the half-spaces, especially Diaby but also McGinn on his goal, were swapping with Watkins frequently.

 

[Monkeypuzzle]

There are a lot of comments from people claiming that the squad is too light and we need to make more signings. Is it actually? It feels like we have brought in players who will actually play and sold players who never actually played. Does anyone have the stats on who actually played under Emery last season to compare to the squad we have now?

[CVByrne]

We seem to build up as a 4 2 2 2 or 3 2 4 1 - depending on the RB we field. 

 

[TRO]

Gary Neville says......The box midfield is a playing style that has reignited the game and is here to stay.

I am not sure what he means by that. I believe styles stay popular while a team is winning, when it falters, things get re-examined.

Nothing is new in this game, all these things have been tried before, sure there are tweaks and nuances, but when a system is found to be a winner, someone plots to scupper it, with a counter plot.

Football is a constant moving feast, there is no hard and fast style or system that produces winning football.....players playing consistently well do that, within a well organised structure....but they have to be nimble and adapt to change to stay ahead.

Like in Snooker....you cannot win playing an all out attacking game, or an all out defensive game.....you have to know, when to play, the one or the other.....Football is much the same.

The very top teams know when to switch from one mode to another and back again, and they do it with aplomb.

Any one style, no matter how good it is, creates predictability..and inevitably a team will plot a way to counter/stop it.

Edited August 26, 2023 by TRO

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Gary Neville says......The box midfield is a playing style that has reignited the game and is here to stay.

I am not sure what he means by that. I believe styles stay popular while a team is winning, when it faulters, things get re-examined.

Nothing is new in this game, all these things have been tried before, sure there are tweaks and nuances, but when a system is found to be a winner, someone plots to scupper it, with a counter plot.

Football is a constant moving feast, there is no hard and fast style or system that produces winning football.....players playing consistently well do that, withing a well organised structure....but they have to be nimble and adapt to change to stay ahead.

Like in Snooker....you cannot win playing an all out attacking game, or an all out defensive game.....you have to know, when to play, the one or the other.....Football is much the same.

The very top teams know when to switch from one mode to another and back again, and they do it with aplomb.

Any one style, no matter how good it is, creates predictability..and inevitably a team will plot a way to counter/stop it.

 

It's just an evolution of possession football. from 2 central midfielders to the 3 Mourinho brought to PL and then the 4 2 3 1. Now it's how do we get 4 CMs, two 10s instead of 1 or interesting ways to create the box involving a wide player coming in etc..

I think City have a unique problem with the fact they dominate possession and it's the counter where they seem to be vulnerable hence the 4 CB system with the best 1v1 defenders in a back 3 so 3 2 5 instead of the 2 3 5 which Pep and Liverpool used more often in attack. 

The box midfield is only for teams who want to play possession football and build from the back and try attack centrally. City, Arsenal, Villa and Brighton are the only teams who really play this way. Newcastle and Liverpool are aggressive counter pressers and attack via the flanks (Tottenham are this way too, using width). I'm not so sure on how Chelsea play yet. 

The other teams aren't equipped to play any form of dominant possession football. Brentford are a high press team though. 

[MotoMkali]

5 hours ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

There are a lot of comments from people claiming that the squad is too light and we need to make more signings. Is it actually? It feels like we have brought in players who will actually play and sold players who never actually played. Does anyone have the stats on who actually played under Emery last season to compare to the squad we have now?

The bench did look light vs hibs but onyk because we had 4 players injured (with short term injuries) and a player ineligible to play in the tie with zaniolo. Admittedly it seems like we are selling one of those 4 injured players but Moreno, Ramsey and Dendoncker should all be back within the next 10 games or so. 

I suspect we will look to sign 1 more attacking option with Coutinho going (I'd have signed 1 more anyway because Him and Traore struggle to stay fit). 

We could also do with a RB/RCB. Really I think cash is our weakest link by far. Either we need to sign a RB to replace cash or a rcb to move Konsa to rb. 

[CVByrne]

14 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

The bench did look light vs hibs but onyk because we had 4 players injured (with short term injuries) and a player ineligible to play in the tie with zaniolo. Admittedly it seems like we are selling one of those 4 injured players but Moreno, Ramsey and Dendoncker should all be back within the next 10 games or so. 

I suspect we will look to sign 1 more attacking option with Coutinho going (I'd have signed 1 more anyway because Him and Traore struggle to stay fit). 

We could also do with a RB/RCB. Really I think cash is our weakest link by far. Either we need to sign a RB to replace cash or a rcb to move Konsa to rb. 

Long term injured was Buendia and Mings

Short term was JJ, Moreno, Coutinho, Dendoncker, Iroegbunam and of course Zaniolo ineligible. 

With JPB and Archer moving on.

Assuming we replace Coutinho with a similar attacking player who can play LM or Fwd then 6 players would be available for the bench after the international break. 5 if Tim goes on loan.

I don't think we're light, I think we've a risk if Martinez or Watkins are out for a prolonged period of time.

One player to replace Coutinho and we're set until January I'd say. 

[CVByrne]

Why I feel we are balanced is we've 6 players who can play CM for example McGinn and Chambers have plenty of experience in a double pivot.

We've countless players who can play LM or RM, wingers, fullbacks, forwards.

Central Defence we've 5 maybe 6 with Kamara who can play there. RB we've 3 maybe 4 of we say Dendoncker can play RCB in a back 3

It's left back that's a specialist position 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

Long term injured was Buendia and Mings

Short term was JJ, Moreno, Coutinho, Dendoncker, Iroegbunam and of course Zaniolo ineligible. 

With JPB and Archer moving on.

Assuming we replace Coutinho with a similar attacking player who can play LM or Fwd then 6 players would be available for the bench after the international break. 5 if Tim goes on loan.

I don't think we're light, I think we've a risk if Martinez or Watkins are out for a prolonged period of time.

One player to replace Coutinho and we're set until January I'd say. 

Yes agreed here but outside of the top 4, you’re rarely going to have really solid back ups at CF and GK if they’re out for a long time. 
 
As long as we get one more right footed attacker/midfielder - we will be set.