Ollie Watkins

[allani]

19 minutes ago, andyjsg said:

I still dont think he gets that many chances, compared to say the number of chances Tammy had in the championship and despite a decent haul he still missed loads.

I guess we see where he gets to at the end of the season and if he has missed lots if chances, then its the hard task of finding someone more prolific and also capable of doing the work load that Ollie puts in.

But the big difference is that in the box Tammy makes more chances for himself.  Tammy is a natural striker and so gambles on attacking space or where the ball might go and makes space for himself.  In the box Ollie is far too reactive - which means that the ball never quite reaches him or just goes past him or gets cut out at the last moment.  If Emery can get him "attacking spaces" in the box then he'd get more (or at least better chances).  Even with how bad we have been for most of the last 24 months Ollie should have been creating more chances for himself.  If a wide player makes a perfect cross and the centre forward runs in front of the CB and blasts a header over the bar that gets marked down as a missed chance.  If a wide player makes a perfect cross and the centre forward stays behind the CB and allows the CB to make a defensive clearance that is still a chance missed (rather than a missed chance).  Ollie finds himself in the second of those categories too often.  Ultimately you can say that they are the same thing as neither resulted in a goal - but by the sheer law of averages the CF in the first example is likely to score more than the CF in the second example.  But given how Emery made our midfield look world class in 4 days maybe he and his team can teach Ollie to be more proactive in those types of situations.

[Indigo]

I don't think he's a bad finisher but he is a safe one. He generally doesn't score goals that you wouldn't already expect him to, and he tends to exclusively just hit the ball low and hard to just make sure it's on target rather than taking other options such as lifting it over the keeper as he could have done on occasions vs Leeds for example.

[allani]

23 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its catch 22, no world class finisher, is coming to us, in the lower half of the table.

I can only see it being a roll of the dice, and chance our luck on one with Potential.

Our goals, albeit in short supply are spread around the team......which, in some ways is harder to stop....Arsenal have no real stand out finishers, their goals are spread around the team.....Wenger once said " Teams score goals", when asked about his strikers, drying up.

Ollie for now, will be ok.....with a bit of fine tuning from UE and co......He could be more clinical.

In many ways, he is playing well, but he needs to be in the box, and to be quick to the ball, to score....at present much of his work, is in assisting.

Actually he has had one of the lowest assist records of the top 30 scorers in the PL over the last 3 seasons.  Hopefully Sunday is the start of that changing - because if his goal contributions goes up I don't really care whether it is him scoring or him assisting.

Sunday was his best match for a long time (the same can be said about many others!) and I don't really care that he didn't score (or waste two decent chances with an awful first touch) because he directly impacted on us scoring all three (if I am correct in him laying off the ball that resulted in JJ being fouled).  If he plays like that more often than not then he definitely has a role to play here. I'd still prefer us to have a striker with a better first touch and a better finishing technique when through on the keeper as I suspect that goals like Bailey's will be our "bread and butter" under Emery's system.  It might be that Ollie becomes our starting forward when we are playing the Sly 6 and we need more of a presser than a finisher - with us looking to the likes of Bailey and Ramsay to arrive from slightly deeper to score.  Whilst in games where we try and dominate possession and territory we need to bring in someone with quicker feet and a better touch.

[allani]

16 minutes ago, Indigo said:

I don't think he's a bad finisher but he is a safe one. He generally doesn't score goals that you wouldn't already expect him to, and he tends to exclusively just hit the ball low and hard to just make sure it's on target rather than taking other options such as lifting it over the keeper as he could have done on occasions vs Leeds for example.

Agreed.  I watched an interview with Michael Owen many, many years ago and he said he wasn't interested in trying to hit the target, he was (almost) always trying to hit the inside of the post.  Some games that meant that he was 6 inches "off" all game and put loads of chances just wide but that never worried him because he was confident that the next game he'd get his radar sorted and score two or three goals that the keeper had pretty much no chance of scoring.  Even with Ollie's spell of crashing shots against the woodwork a couple of seasons back it didn't feel like that was him trying to be too precise.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, allani said:

Actually he has had one of the lowest assist records of the top 30 scorers in the PL over the last 3 seasons.  Hopefully Sunday is the start of that changing - because if his goal contributions goes up I don't really care whether it is him scoring or him assisting.

Sunday was his best match for a long time (the same can be said about many others!) and I don't really care that he didn't score (or waste two decent chances with an awful first touch) because he directly impacted on us scoring all three (if I am correct in him laying off the ball that resulted in JJ being fouled).  If he plays like that more often than not then he definitely has a role to play here. I'd still prefer us to have a striker with a better first touch and a better finishing technique when through on the keeper as I suspect that goals like Bailey's will be our "bread and butter" under Emery's system.  It might be that Ollie becomes our starting forward when we are playing the Sly 6 and we need more of a presser than a finisher - with us looking to the likes of Bailey and Ramsay to arrive from slightly deeper to score.  Whilst in games where we try and dominate possession and territory we need to bring in someone with quicker feet and a better touch.

Couldn't agree with you more.....I think the days of rigid set ups are over, UE, will utilise the players to the full.

Player attributes will be deployed, more than the players themselves, if that makes sense, and he will use it to tactically plot his strategy.

I think UE will open up a whole new thinking for us.....He has opened up a whole new thinking for me already.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, allani said:

Agreed.  I watched an interview with Michael Owen many, many years ago and he said he wasn't interested in trying to hit the target, he was (almost) always trying to hit the inside of the post.  Some games that meant that he was 6 inches "off" all game and put loads of chances just wide but that never worried him because he was confident that the next game he'd get his radar sorted and score two or three goals that the keeper had pretty much no chance of scoring.  Even with Ollie's spell of crashing shots against the woodwork a couple of seasons back it didn't feel like that was him trying to be too precise.

I also remember Gary Lineker, explaining his success rate, by declaring, he "Attacks the space" and gets his colleagues to play the ball in to the spaces, in and around the box.

They all have little idiosynchrasies, that bring success to them.

Ollie needs to get some of his own...He might have a chance now.

Edited November 8, 2022 by TRO

[choffer]

6 hours ago, Philosopher said:

Ollie is a converted winger.

Sorry to pick this out of what was otherwise a well thought-through post but this just isn't true. I was STH at Brentford during his time there. He played out wide because they had an out-and-out striker in either Hogan or Maupay. Ollie was adaptable enough to play out wide and be effective there. He was always considered a centre forward who was played out of position but they 100% expected him to play through the middle, which is what he ended up doing before coming to us. 

[allani]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Couldn't agree with you more.....I think the days of rigid set ups are over, UE, will utilise the players to the full.

Player attributes will be deployed, more than the players themselves, if that makes sense, and he will use it to tactically plot his strategy.

I think UE will open up a whole new thinking for us.....He has opened up a whole new thinking for me already.

Me too.  I was at a lose as to how any manager could get our midfield to look balanced.  Now it is only one game - but the way that Emery got Luiz, Ramsay and Donks combining with our defenders, wing backs and attacking players was mind-boggling.  I still think we need a couple of reinforcements (CM, CF) but plenty of positive signs.  Hopefully, the tide will turn against Digne too - I thought he was brilliant on Sunday (both defensively and offensively) and showed why I think he is still the best LB outside the Sly 6.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, allani said:

Me too.  I was at a lose as to how any manager could get our midfield to look balanced.  Now it is only one game - but the way that Emery got Luiz, Ramsay and Donks combining with our defenders, wing backs and attacking players was mind-boggling.  I still think we need a couple of reinforcements (CM, CF) but plenty of positive signs.  Hopefully, the tide will turn against Digne too - I thought he was brilliant on Sunday (both defensively and offensively) and showed why I think he is still the best LB outside the Sly 6.

I know, its early and we might get a spanking on Thursday, but Sunday, was an eye opener for me.

I saw things, that surprised me and I didn't think we had it in us.....as I say, One swallow and all that, but it was a great start, if we can just build on that, it would be great.

Newcastle have done it, why not us.

I think they will be out with there ****housery on Thursday, ably assisted by the officials .....I just hope we can nullify them.

[allani]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I also remember Gary Lineker, explaining his success rate, by declaring, he "Attacks the space" and gets his colleagues to play the ball in to the spaces, in and around the box.

They all have little idiosynchrasies, that bring success to them.

Ollie needs to get some of his own.

Lineker was incredible around the penalty box - one of those who some people claimed was just lucky to be in the right place at the right time, whilst failing to understand that that was his skill and that he worked on tirelessly on practicing and improving his ability to read a game and predict where the ball might be going so that he was already there.  Haaland is similar - how many tap-ins has he had by being in the right place - only when you watch the goal back and see how he feints a move so that he loses his marker and finds himself plenty of room just in case the ball gets to him (which at the moment it seems to be doing with unerring regularity).

[allani]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I know, its early and we might get a spanking on Thursday, but Sunday, was an eye opener for me.

I saw things, that surprised me and I didn't think we had it in us.....as I say, One swallow and all that, but it was a great start, if we can just build on that, it would be great.

Newcastle have done it, why not us.

I think they will be out with there ****housery on Thursday, ably assisted by the officials .....I just hope we can nullify them.

I don't think I have EVER seen us create the passing triangles we did on Sunday that gave us so much space and time for the likes of Luiz to then dictate our attacking play.  Admittedly the last time we were a really good team (mid 90s)  we played a very different style which also worked pretty well.  It will be interesting to see what happens if / when teams don't press like Utd did and whether our players can then adapt in the way that Villareal could.

[allani]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I know, its early and we might get a spanking on Thursday, but Sunday, was an eye opener for me.

I saw things, that surprised me and I didn't think we had it in us.....as I say, One swallow and all that, but it was a great start, if we can just build on that, it would be great.

Newcastle have done it, why not us.

I think they will be out with there ****housery on Thursday, ably assisted by the officials .....I just hope we can nullify them.

Sorry I meant to also comment on this bit.  We've had some great performances / matches in the last 20 years (along with more than our fair share of not so great ones!) but Sunday was probably the most exciting match I can recall for probably 25 years.  It was better than battering Arsenal, better even than the 7-2 against Liverpool - because those kind of games just felt like glitches in the Matrix.  One of those days where absolutely everything goes right.  Sunday for me was about a team playing three different tactics (in attack, in transition, in defence) and doing stuff in a match situation that was clearly straight off the training ground.  It wasn't about everything clicking and going right, it was about a team being drilled what to do in different situations and executing it (most of the time).  It was a thing of sporting / tactical beauty.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, allani said:

I don't think I have EVER seen us create the passing triangles we did on Sunday that gave us so much space and time for the likes of Luiz to then dictate our attacking play.  Admittedly the last time we were a really good team (mid 90s)  we played a very different style which also worked pretty well.  It will be interesting to see what happens if / when teams don't press like Utd did and whether our players can then adapt in the way that Villareal could.

I think Ollie Watkins, will be a central part of UE's plans, and the play will centre around him....initially, anyway.

 

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, allani said:

Sorry I meant to also comment on this bit.  We've had some great performances / matches in the last 20 years (along with more than our fair share of not so great ones!) but Sunday was probably the most exciting match I can recall for probably 25 years.  It was better than battering Arsenal, better even than the 7-2 against Liverpool - because those kind of games just felt like glitches in the Matrix.  One of those days where absolutely everything goes right.  Sunday for me was about a team playing three different tactics (in attack, in transition, in defence) and doing stuff in a match situation that was clearly straight off the training ground.  It wasn't about everything clicking and going right, it was about a team being drilled what to do in different situations and executing it (most of the time).  It was a thing of sporting / tactical beauty.

I kinda felt, that I have been watching poor play, for that long, I forgot that this kinda play existed.

I think I have inadvertently brain washed myself in to thinking that play was beyond us.....and just accepting sub standard as the norm.

It was a release, an awakening, to what is possible, with the right application and approach.....I expect some games will still be tough, but surely the belief has had a fillip.

I saw Ollie at the centre of much of what we was doing right, and his contribution was huge....He was fired up, something, I haven't seen much of lately....and he seemed to be enjoying it.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by TRO

[allani]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

I kinda felt, that I have been watching poor play, for that long, I forgot that this kinda play existed.

I think I have inadvertently brain washed myself in to thinking that play was beyond us.....and just accepting sub standard as the norm.

It was a release, an awakening, to what is possible, with the right application and approach.....I expect some games will still be tough, but surely the belief has had a fillip.

I saw Ollie at the centre of much of what we was doing right, and his contribution was huge....He was fired up, something, I haven't seen much of lately....and he seemed to be enjoying it.

I thought Ollie played pretty well but not as well as you did!   But I did see signs that maybe our urgent need to sign a CF isn't as urgent as I had previously thought.  Apart from that though I am in complete agreement with everything else you say above (and on previous posts).  I am nervous / anxious because I haven't felt this positive for a LONG time and previous bouts of optimism have generally been snuffed out with barely a puff of breath.  Please let THIS time be different!

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, choffer said:

Sorry to pick this out of what was otherwise a well thought-through post but this just isn't true. I was STH at Brentford during his time there. He played out wide because they had an out-and-out striker in either Hogan or Maupay. Ollie was adaptable enough to play out wide and be effective there. He was always considered a centre forward who was played out of position but they 100% expected him to play through the middle, which is what he ended up doing before coming to us. 

Thanks for the insight. To me though he doesn't seem like a natural goalscoring striker, and seems most comfortable in possession when he is in wide positions.

I think his role on Sunday was perfect for him and the same for Bailey (wide strikers). When one was wide the other was central and vice versa. I think it's now a case of who plays behind them and who comes in if one isn't available.  

For me Ollie is just about 7 out of 10 in terms of finishing Good, but not clinical, or lethal. With strikers they need goals, as their confidence suffers. A lot of the little nuancies when finishing disappear from a strikers game when confidence is lacking. Being played in this way he will love, and then the goals and confidence will come.

[est1874]

Delighted for him that he looked improved on Sunday and hope we see more of the same moving forward, however it's quite a disgrace that he's only scored 2 goals all season. For context, that's the same amount as Joelinton, who is a shit striker being played as a midfielder, with less starts to his name this season. Woeful stuff, and we need to prioritize upgrading him no matter what happens between here and the January window.

[Rolta]

25 minutes ago, est1874 said:

Delighted for him that he looked improved on Sunday and hope we see more of the same moving forward, however it's quite a disgrace that he's only scored 2 goals all season. For context, that's the same amount as Joelinton, who is a shit striker being played as a midfielder, with less starts to his name this season. Woeful stuff, and we need to prioritize upgrading him no matter what happens between here and the January window.

Under Gerrard we couldn't get a shot on goal because we were being run like a kids' team. I wouldn't write him off yet.

(And Joelinton is a quality player and has been playing more advanced in the last few games!) I think the days of using Joelinton as an example of a joke player are over. Funnily enough it was another, way too familiar, shit manager who was making him look bad too.

[Tom13]

12 minutes ago, Rolta said:

Under Gerrard we couldn't get a shot on goal because we were being run like a kids' team. I wouldn't write him off yet.

(And Joelinton is a quality player and has been playing more advanced in the last few games!) I think the days of using Joelinton as an example of a joke player are over. Funnily enough it was another, way too familiar, shit manager who was making him look bad too.

Yeah, Joelinton has always been decent. Even Eddie Howe said he was a big fan before he joined them.

[MakemineVanilla]

On 08/11/2022 at 16:18, Indigo said:

I don't think he's a bad finisher but he is a safe one. He generally doesn't score goals that you wouldn't already expect him to, and he tends to exclusively just hit the ball low and hard to just make sure it's on target rather than taking other options such as lifting it over the keeper as he could have done on occasions vs Leeds for example.

In my mind, the very definition of a great striker is that they score when they wouldn't be expected to, and Watkins is clearly not that, but for a recently promoted club, who are not equipped to dominate the ball, Watkins has been an excellent fit for Villa.

I think that the proof of Villa's shortfall is that playing Ings as well as Watkins, sacrifices a man where Villa have been relatively weak, in midfield.

If Villa can solve their midfield problems, then the opposition will have to press higher up the pitch, which will provide more space behind for Watkins to exploit with his pace.

I can't say I have never wished Watkins was a better finisher but his unselfish work off and on the ball, makes him essential to Villa's present set-up.