bannedfromHandV Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, El Zen said: I’m kind of struggling to understand the headshaking and despair being expressed here. If it’s directed at anti-vaxxers and the like, then fine, though I can’t say I understand who it’s then directed at. If it’s directed at people people who are simply engaging in a debate with a slightly different perspective on our overall societal response to the current crisis, then frankly I find it to be poor form and intellectually dishonest. Pandemic policy decisions are decidedly NOT black-and-white. They involve a lot more perspectives than strictly medical science ones. People who argue against restrictions are not all doing so out of purely selfish reasons - restrictions come with enormous costs. Warning against these costs, and debating the necessity of them, isn’t selfish. It’s not okay to have any kind of view that differs from the government advice on here, I think that’s become evidently clear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said: It’s not okay to have any kind of view that differs from the government advice on here, I think that’s become evidently clear. Unfortunately it's too much of an emotional discussion. I don't think I have seen a single anti-vaxxer here (is anyone openly against the Covid jab? If so, why?) yet it looks like there is a lot of opposition to those. Very often this discussion (just like the Brexit debate) is an ideological battle. Instead of battling arguments, we personalise them and take them to heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 57 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said: First you had Dominic Raab who couldn’t decide if the number of people in hospital with Omicron was 250, 9 or 10. Then you had Boris saying there had been 780,000 cases in one day. And now this hilarious effort…. Same energy as a school kid who is trying to blag the answers because they didn’t do their homework. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, El Zen said: People who argue against restrictions are not all doing so out of purely selfish reasons - restrictions come with enormous costs. Warning against these costs, and debating the necessity of them, isn’t selfish. What are these restrictions your so upset about? People are not being asked to do anything unreasonable. What's getting on people's nerves is this attitude that there is nothing really wrong and Medical Professionals are idiots just trying to panic everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Unfortunately it's too much of an emotional discussion. I don't think I have seen a single anti-vaxxer here (is anyone openly against the Covid jab? If so, why?) yet it looks like there is a lot of opposition to those. Very often this discussion (just like the Brexit debate) is an ideological battle. Instead of battling arguments, we personalise them and take them to heart. I’d happily discuss any tangible benefits of Brexit or not being vaccinated. I think it would be a short discussion though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: It’s not okay to have any kind of view that differs from the government advice on here, I think that’s become evidently clear. That is actually hilarious. If you look at most of the posters debating on the opposite site to you and liking opposing view posts, a big chunk of them normally take any opportunity whatsoever to criticise The Government. For most people this isn't about politics, its about reasoning, good sense and community protection. In fact I might be wrong but the sense I get is that most of the people posting "it's OK why are they scaring us" comments are probably viewing it more politically than the "there is a major problem here we have to take seriously" brigade. I know my politics differ greatly to a lot of posters on my side of this argument. It's nothing whatsoever about agreeing or disagreeing with Government advice, it's about what they personally believe to be the right way to deal with this. And once again, please tell me EXACTLY which piece of Government advice you feel so aggrieved about? Edited December 17, 2021 by sidcow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ingram85 Posted December 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2021 (edited) Big evil nasty science man: “Wear a mask in shops, think about who you are visiting and test a bit more please”. Gammons: “Muh freedums”…. Edited December 17, 2021 by Ingram85 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: Big evil nasty science man: “Wear a mask in shops, think about who you are visiting and test a bit more please”. Gammons: “Muh freedums”…. Yup, “he told us to take care as we get record numbers of infections heading into the festive period, he should be sacked”. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, sidcow said: What are these restrictions your so upset about? People are not being asked to do anything unreasonable. What's getting on people's nerves is this attitude that there is nothing really wrong and Medical Professionals are idiots just trying to panic everyone. I haven’t actually criticised any restrictions currently in effect/not in effect in th UK. I have criticised the Norwegian government for what I see as an overreaction, but they have gone much further than yours AFAIK. I also generally agree with those who, the way I read it, are warning against letting worst-case scenarios and fear guide our (widely understood) response to omicron. Which I don’t perceive to be a selfish view at all, but a completely legitimate concern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, Genie said: I’d happily discuss any tangible benefits of Brexit or not being vaccinated. I think it would be a short discussion though. I think you will struggle to find supporters of not being vaccinated on this forum, and I wouldn't be able to steel man these arguments as I don't believe in them. However I will happily argue the UK Gov response to the virus has not been great. I don't mind wearing masks. I don't mind distancing. I do mind telling people to only go outside once a day, I do mind closing outdoor venues when there is no evidence of spread with distance outside, I do mind that we haven't brought it to peoples attention to take responsibility for personal health during this difficult time. I do also mind little success when it comes to early treatment of the disease (but that's more to blame on the pharma industry) but the government has given little guidance on what to do other than 'wait' once you actually catch the disease. I think it could have been handled better. I'm appreciative we were able to quickly develop the vaccines, I am appreciative we could roll them out so quickly. I am not appreciative that the only message we have right now is to get vaxxed if the vast majority of the country already has been vaxxed. We can now see these vaccines are not perfect - so I question, what as a nation can we do next? And it appears to me there is little answer at the minute. Would you say I am being fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bannedfromHandV Posted December 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, sidcow said: That is actually hilarious. If you look at most of the posters debating on the opposite site to you and liking opposing view posts, a big chunk of them normally take any opportunity whatsoever to criticise The Government. For most people this isn't about politics, its about reasoning, good sense and community protection. In fact I might be wrong but the sense I get is that most of the people posting "it's OK why are they scaring us" comments are probably viewing it more politically than the "there is a major problem here we have to take seriously" brigade. I know my politics differ greatly to a lot of posters on my side of this argument. It's nothing whatsoever about agreeing or disagreeing with Government advice, it's about what they personally believe to be the right way to deal with this. And once again, please tell me EXACTLY which piece of Government advice you feel so aggrieved about? I’ve learned it’s pointless trying to even debate / discuss it but: Bottom line is in my unqualified opinion, the general reaction to this virus has been way OTT and I don’t believe a single word that comes out of any serving government ministers’ mouth on this subject or any other so they can shove any advice firmly up their arses as far as I’m concerned, most of it is bollocks, wearing masks is bollocks, does naff all against an airborne virus, the vaccinations appear to be bollocks because plenty of people still falling ill despite being double jabbed (whilst funnily enough, plenty of people who’ve had no jabs are yet to contract it at all, go figure right). Jabs and masks are just a placebo for scared people to feel a bit safer. 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, El Zen said: I haven’t actually criticised any restrictions currently in effect/not in effect in th UK. I have criticised the Norwegian government for what I see as an overreaction, but they have gone much further than yours AFAIK. I also generally agree with those who, the way I read it, are warning against letting worst-case scenarios and fear guide our (widely understood) response to omicron. Which I don’t perceive to be a selfish view at all, but a completely legitimate concern. The UK have said “It could get very bad, but for now no additional measures are added, we’d just like you to take a bit of extra care”. I think if the UK we’re letting worst case scenario dictate the play there would be restrictions imposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 50 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I’ve learned it’s pointless trying to even debate / discuss it but: Bottom line is in my unqualified opinion, the general reaction to this virus has been way OTT and I don’t believe a single word that comes out of any serving government ministers’ mouth on this subject or any other so they can shove any advice firmly up their arses as far as I’m concerned, most of it is bollocks, wearing masks is bollocks, does naff all against an airborne virus, the vaccinations appear to be bollocks because plenty of people still falling ill despite being double jabbed (whilst funnily enough, plenty of people who’ve had no jabs are yet to contract it at all, go figure right). Jabs and masks are just a placebo for scared people to feel a bit safer. Masks are bollocks. Vaccines are bollocks. **** me lol, literally unbelievable. I guess at least you’ve outed yourself … and clearly don’t read anything. The **** vaccines don’t **** stop you getting the **** **** virus. Comprende? Jesus **** wept. I give up with people like that. Don’t get the jab, don’t wear masks whatever, I hope they all get it and it thoroughly kicks their **** arses. **** the lot of the people that think like this. I’m done. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: the vaccinations appear to be bollocks because plenty of people still falling ill despite being double jabbed (whilst funnily enough, plenty of people who’ve had no jabs are yet to contract it at all, go figure right). Jabs and masks are just a placebo for scared people to feel a bit safer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Genie said: The UK have said “It could get very bad, but for now no additional measures are added, we’d just like you to take a bit of extra care”. I think if the UK we’re letting worst case scenario dictate the play there would be restrictions imposed. And that seems entirely fair. But it’s equally fair to discuss and raise concerns about panic and overreaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 **** unbelievable. Fuming man. The worrying part is there is a large part of the country that thinks like this. I’m such a dumbass wearing my mask all the time at work to protect patients, I’ll tell my boss it’s no longer needed. What a joke. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Mic09 said: I think you will struggle to find supporters of not being vaccinated on this forum, 7 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: the vaccinations appear to be bollocks because plenty of people still falling ill despite being double jabbed (whilst funnily enough, plenty of people who’ve had no jabs are yet to contract it at all, go figure right). Jabs and masks are just a placebo for scared people to feel a bit safer. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 3 hours ago, LondonLax said: People do tend to listen to experts but they often listen to the ones who confirm their beliefs. For example, on Omicron people who suspect it is not a big deal believe the South African head epidemiologist over the U.K. one. This is very fair. It does now seem that there is a clear spectrum of how the data is being interpreted by different scientists/doctors/experts. There are some who view the data available through a negative lens whilst others are managing to identify positives. Personally, I’m just trying to be optimistic and I suppose I am paying more attention to those scientists/doctors/experts who feed into my optimism. Ahh well. I’ll keep bringing the sprinkles of optimism. Some people might appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 17, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Mic09 said: I'm appreciative we were able to quickly develop the vaccines, I am appreciative we could roll them out so quickly. I am not appreciative that the only message we have right now is to get vaxxed if the vast majority of the country already has been vaxxed. We can now see these vaccines are not perfect - so I question, what as a nation can we do next? And it appears to me there is little answer at the minute. For **** sake. Will you not pause and think what you are saying here. This miracle that has been given to us by science is targeted at a disease which was identified 2 years ago. It has mutated twice since then and this miracle has saved millions of lives around the world because even though the disease shifted it still protected them. The vaccine very nearly is perfect. But now that disease from 2 years ago has mutated to be almost unrecognisable from what it was, and the CURRENT vaccines are indeed not perfect, but will still protect you if you have another dose. That's why the strong message is to get vaccinated. The problem is not the vaccines, the problem is the disease. It staggers me that people still think like this. Edited December 17, 2021 by sidcow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante_Lockhart Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I’ve learned it’s pointless trying to even debate / discuss it but: Bottom line is in my unqualified opinion, the general reaction to this virus has been way OTT and I don’t believe a single word that comes out of any serving government ministers’ mouth on this subject or any other so they can shove any advice firmly up their arses as far as I’m concerned, most of it is bollocks, wearing masks is bollocks, does naff all against an airborne virus, the vaccinations appear to be bollocks because plenty of people still falling ill despite being double jabbed (whilst funnily enough, plenty of people who’ve had no jabs are yet to contract it at all, go figure right). Jabs and masks are just a placebo for scared people to feel a bit safer. I agree. There have been so many contradictions from the people 'in charge' throughout the whole thing, why should I believe what they're saying now? Masks don't do anything, oh wait - everyone should wear a mask. In fact, double mask in some cases. Healthcare staff need to be vaccinated to continue working, but not until March next year - Let's get the winter out of the way first. etc.. etc.. They've also, personally, made A LOT of money from the 'pandemic' through contracts, shares, stocks etc... which were conveniently moved around prior to the first lockdown. My biggest gripe at the moment is that the data coming out of SA shows that this OMICRON 'variant' is a lot milder than the original, and even Delta, yet we're all flapping about because of the scaremongering from the top again. If people want to blindly follow them that's their call, but at some point you need to stop being a sheep, open your eyes and make your own opinions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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