duke313 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 34 minutes ago, TRO said: I think training along side the first team will have merit too, stuff rubs off.....This is not a loaded question, but what exactly do you think he will learn more, playing in the championship, for example?....He has already proved he can score goals there. He has proved he can score goals at under 21 level. I accept, as we progress, the opportunities, will get harder, but we have to provide pathways for the academy to work..... We have already spent c18 mill on a young player from the MLS and some fans have us selling Archer for less...Don't get that. Question.......Are we simply under estimating Cameron Archer? The danger as well is the player becoming disillusioned with being constantly loaned out. As you say, there needs to be a pathway for these young players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 I'm not sure what the fascination is with Ferran Torres and Joao Felix. I can't say, I have studied them forensically.....but their goal scoring records are much inferior to Ollie Watkins, not even close. I am not particularly taken by Vanity signings.....Thats what Chelsea have been doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, TRO said: I'm not sure what the fascination is with Ferran Torres and Joao Felix. I can't say, I have studied them forensically.....but their goal scoring records are much inferior to Ollie Watkins, not even close. I am not particularly taken by Vanity signings.....Thats what Chelsea have been doing. I think Felix is essentially a no.10 or 2nd striker and Ferran is mainly a wide forward so maybe not fair to judge completely on their scoring records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 If within reason, I could get a striker, it would be Evan Ferguson.....as young as he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpotvilla Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, TRO said: If within reason, I could get a striker, it would be Evan Ferguson.....as young as he is. That would be a very good call but highly unlikely Brighton would agree to it. They hardly need the money!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 hour ago, TRO said: I think training along side the first team will have merit too, stuff rubs off.....This is not a loaded question, but what exactly do you think he will learn more, playing in the championship, for example?....He has already proved he can score goals there. He has proved he can score goals at under 21 level. I accept, as we progress, the opportunities, will get harder, but we have to provide pathways for the academy to work..... We have already spent c18 mill on a young player from the MLS and some fans have us selling Archer for less...Don't get that. Question.......Are we simply under estimating Cameron Archer? It could, yeah. There's an argument for keeping him around and coaching him directly but I'd like to see him complete a full season as first-choice striker in the Championship, as I think that would give him the chance to refine those areas in a real setting rather than in training. He's only played 3000 minutes over 2 seasons - I'd like to see at least that or preferably closer to at least 40 games worth in one season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, villan95 said: I think Felix is essentially a no.10 or 2nd striker and Ferran is mainly a wide forward so maybe not fair to judge completely on their scoring records. Yeah, I get that....but we are talking about, if Ollie gets injured or suspended.... we then need someone to lead the line and score goals. We have Emi Buendia and Phil Coutinho to play No 10 or second Striker.....We don't know if, Moussa Diaby, can play that role, too? I think, if we are to bring in another forward player, he has to have goal scoring capabilities and record.....If that takes a gamble, like lower league or foreign league, then maybe we have to do that....but to my knowledge they are not plentiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, TRO said: We have Emi Buendia and Phil Coutinho to play No 10 or second Striker.....We don't know if, Moussa Diaby, can play that role, too? Unai says he can. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, TRO said: Question.......Are we simply under estimating Cameron Archer? No. I don't think so. But let's face it. We don't have much PL-based evidence as supporters right now on Archer. What we saw Sunday was a player who was able to keep possession and take command of the ball but who also seemed to get himself into cul-de-sacs a lot. He made loads of inconclusive backward passes and lateral passes. Almost every time he got the ball, within a minute it was back at Newcastle's grubby feet. Preseason matches should matter. I don't know about "deserve" (can't run a football club that way), but I think it would be wise, on logic, to give him another big chance. It's "only preseason" is meaningless to me. It's more about giving Emery and company a chance to learn more about how he would do. But some real evidence is beginning to emerge. He faced Lascelles head on, one-on-one, and he lost, for example. I can't unsee that. He could not get past the man. No ambiguity there. But it's a tiny sampling, for sure, and that has to be factored into any decision about how to integrate or move on from Archer. Based on all I've seen, I just don't think he's quite talented enough for top of the table progress for the Villa. I actually think Jhonny would work better for us in that role -- and that we still will need someone with explosive abilities in the box. Edited July 25, 2023 by Marka Ragnos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 minute ago, lexicon said: It could, yeah. There's an argument for keeping him around and coaching him directly but I'd like to see him complete a full season as first-choice striker in the Championship, as I think that would give him the chance to refine those areas in a real setting rather than in training. He's only played 3000 minutes over 2 seasons - I'd like to see at least that or preferably closer to at least 40 games worth in one season. OK. Just being devils advocate again....If he does go out on Loan to another Championship club.....is the main criteria, who can afford him?..as opposed to his ideal setting to progress....because that could limit his destination. I am not for molly-coddling players, but I still think his next step is learning the last third transitions, and reacting to thse moves....I don't think that may happen with the same slickness in the lower league. This is now about, intelligence building, decision making, timing of runs and outwiting defenders. I just feel with Loans, its questionable, how much interest a loaning club, has in the fine tuning of a talented asset from another club......I understand the sink or swim argument of the old days and that players have to MAKE it happen.....but I just think with an elite Coach as we have, he will miss the benefit of that tuition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 He’s at his peak value probs now and whatever we sell him for is pure profit towards FFP. Man City have sold £115mill of academy players over the last 3 seasons to our £120million which is skewed by Grealish. Modern football finances dictate we will need to balance bringing through players for both the first team and to sell on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: No. I don't think so. But let's face it. We don't have much PL-based evidence as supporters right now on Archer. What we saw Sunday was a player who was able to keep possession and take command of the ball but who also seemed to get himself into cul-de-sacs a lot. He made loads of inconclusive backward passes and lateral passes. Almost every time he got the ball, within a minute it was back at Newcastle's grubby feet. Preseason matches should matter. I don't know about "deserve" (can't run a football club that way), but I think it would be wise, on logic, to give him another big chance. It's "only preseason" is meaningless to me. It's more about giving Emery and company a chance to learn more about how he would do. But some real evidence is beginning to emerge. He faced Lascelles head on, one-on-one, and he lost, for example. I can't unsee that. He could not get past the man. No ambiguity there. But it's a tiny sampling, for sure, and that has to be factored into any decision about how to integrate or move on from Archer. Based on all I've seen, I just don't think he's quite talented enough for top of the table progress for the Villa. I actually think Jhonny would work better for us in that role -- and that we still will need someone with explosive abilities in the box. Thats interesting, and I value your opinion. But let me expand on that, somewhat. I Love Ollie watkins and could wax lyrical about him....but in that game he failed c 3 times with his first touch to a through ball, we could have scored if he had.....I could also point out Boub Kamara was robbed of Possesion, once again, that led to conceding.....Top,top players overall IMO....so we ride with that as isolated incidents in a game....but Cam gets forensically examined? Cam never had the luxury of playing in that vibrant first half, with the quality of service sublime......my point is, its difficult to tell under the circumstances....He was brought on with huge defenders to face, in Botman and Lascelles, not exactly ideal for him. Lets make this clear....I am not saying he is the finished article....what I am saying is, with his goal scoring record in the Championship,he has, there is something well worth working with IMO. PS If EmI Buendia, (who has his critics), can turn his game around like that...sensational.....This boy can be the player we want too. Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MWARLEY2 Posted July 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2023 The key point was made by my friend above. There arent enough strikers to go around currently in world football. Chelsea currently have one in Broja. Man Utd are still looking for one and Atalanta are going to pull their pants down again. If he stays he will get plenty of minutes as he cannot play Ollie in every game Then, if he succeeds he has proven goalscoring ability in the Prem and if we want to sell then due to the market being insane he would be valued at 40 mill. Ala Antony Gordon or Balogun. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 38 minutes ago, TRO said: Yeah, I get that....but we are talking about, if Ollie gets injured or suspended.... we then need someone to lead the line and score goals. We have Emi Buendia and Phil Coutinho to play No 10 or second Striker.....We don't know if, Moussa Diaby, can play that role, too? I think, if we are to bring in another forward player, he has to have goal scoring capabilities and record.....If that takes a gamble, like lower league or foreign league, then maybe we have to do that....but to my knowledge they are not plentiful. I suppose it depends if Unai wants another number 9 or more of a second striker. I also have concerns about the striker position should anything happen to Ollie as I'm not sure we have anyone else adept at leading the line. I fully trust whatever Unai decides though 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said: The key point was made by my friend above. There arent enough strikers to go around currently in world football. Chelsea currently have one in Broja. Man Utd are still looking for one and Atalanta are going to pull their pants down again. If he stays he will get plenty of minutes as he cannot play Ollie in every game Then, if he succeeds he has proven goalscoring ability in the Prem and if we want to sell then due to the market being insane he would be valued at 40 mill. Ala Antony Gordon or Balogun. Don’t subscribe to the this there’s not enough strikers - literally every team has them It’s why we employ a huge team of data analysts and scouts to find one. I could list of a load who’d IMO would be enhance us… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 minute ago, thabucks said: Don’t subscribe to the this there’s not enough strikers - literally every team has them It’s why we employ a huge team of data analysts and scouts to find one. I could list of a load who’d IMO would be enhance us… Fair enough. I am sure there are. But at what price. Thats the key . They cost a fortune . I read that last summer West Ham enquired about Ollie and were told £80 mill . Theres also the familiarity of bodymoor heath and Birmingham to consider. Thats the point i am making. They cost alot . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, thabucks said: Don’t subscribe to the this there’s not enough strikers - literally every team has them It’s why we employ a huge team of data analysts and scouts to find one. I could list of a load who’d IMO would be enhance us… Please, enlighten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 I mean I want to be wrong about archer and hope he is the real deal but personally just don’t see it happening myself… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2023 37 minutes ago, TRO said: Thats interesting, and I value your opinion. But let me expand on that, somewhat. I Love Ollie watkins and could wax lyrical about him....but in that game he failed c 3 times with his first touch to a through ball, we could have scored if he had.....I could also point out Boub Kamara was robbed of Possesion, once again, that led to conceding.....Top,top players overall IMO....so we ride with that as isolated incidents in a game....but Cam gets forensically examined? Cam never had the luxury of playing in that vibrant first half, with the quality of service sublime......my point is, its difficult to tell under the circumstances....He was brought on with huge defenders to face, in Botman and Lascelles, not exactly ideal for him. Lets make this clear....I am not saying he is the finished article....what I am saying is, with his goal scoring record in the Championship,he has, there is something well worth working with IMO. PS If EmI Buendia, (who has his critics), can turn his game around like that...sensational.....This boy can be the player we want too. Yeah, I don't disagree at all. And you're right about Ollie and Boub. Bottom line for me: If possible, may want to keep Cam and Jhonny and Ollie -- AND still get a new striker, ready-for-amaze talent, too --- but we also need more information before any big decisions are made. I think if Cam plays a couple more matches like that, then we'll know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, thabucks said: I mean I want to be wrong about archer and hope he is the real deal but personally just don’t see it happening myself… Nothing wrong with that, its opinions. I think the hardest thing, is to have the eye for goal and the accuracy to find the net and the composure to execute it all......Thats at any level of football. He has to learn the subtleys/nuances of getting to, the bit what he's good at......I back him to do it.....even in the top flight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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