magnkarl Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: The Russians haven't tried to conflate criticism of the Russian State or it's leaders with Slavophobia. The differences that contribute to commenting on one conflict and not the other are surely manifold and varied. ‘Russophobia’ Term Used to Justify Moscow’s War Crimes in Ukraine, Historian Tells Security Council Quote Other Briefers Declare Russian Language Gradually Being Destroyed The Security Council heard today dissenting assertions from three briefers — two calling attention to Russophobia in Ukraine and one countering that claim as a colonial endeavour to justify war crimes — in a meeting requested by the Russian Federation, as delegates weighed in with their own prescriptions. Kirill Vyshinsky, Executive Director of Rossiya Segodnya, detailing several examples of modern Ukrainian Russophobia, spotlighted the forceful expulsion of the Russian people, lies against Moscow and the open hatred of Russians. Despite nearly one third of Ukraine’s population referring to Russian as its native language, the last 20 years have seen a deliberate shrinking of space. Ukrainian authorities have stopped any study of Russian language, eliminated it from schools, removed books and prohibited those in higher education from speaking it, even in private. There has also been a mass renaming of cities and streets; the destruction of monuments; and the seizure of churches. “We see an ideology of hatred for everything Russian, hatred of Russians, hatred of anyone who is somehow linked to Russia,” he underscored. No? Again, and this is not a gripe I have with people who have a cause they're into, it just seems like the pro-Palestinian sentiment is often not directly linked to wanting to fight for the oppressed, but rather the most popular thing at the moment, and you'll find people who think Russia isn't committing war crimes while they think Israel are, just as you'll find people who think Russia doesn't use 'Russiaphobia' as an argument for their genocide and threats of nuclear war when they have been for years. Either you're not that well read on the Ukraine war or you're willfully ignoring it to make a point about Israel. Edited May 13 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 16 hours ago, magnkarl said: ‘Russophobia’ Term Used to Justify Moscow’s War Crimes in Ukraine, Historian Tells Security Council No? Again, and this is not a gripe I have with people who have a cause they're into, it just seems like the pro-Palestinian sentiment is often not directly linked to wanting to fight for the oppressed, but rather the most popular thing at the moment, and you'll find people who think Russia isn't committing war crimes while they think Israel are, just as you'll find people who think Russia doesn't use 'Russiaphobia' as an argument for their genocide and threats of nuclear war when they have been for years. Either you're not that well read on the Ukraine war or you're willfully ignoring it to make a point about Israel. I'm happy to fall into the category of not being an expert on either conflict tbh. I feel the 'as far as I'm aware' I wrote was doing some work on either sentence that followed and provides the retort to your closing statement, but fair cop, there's a full stop and the Russians obviously have attempted to use slavophobia as justification for their actions as per your post. I appreciate in the wider community one will encounter all sorts of people and opinions, and I can't speak for other posters internal motivations behind posting any more than I would infer to know what they are or present them in a falacious context. It's the inference that there were 'telling' motivations behind criticising Israel in this thread if we don't also criticise Russia in another thread that compelled me to weigh in. Despite my incorrect statement that you've highlighted, would you agree with my second sentence there that you've quoted, about manifold and varied reasoning? Or do you agree with the other poster - do you feel there's something 'telling' about it, whatever that might mean, that I did not touch upon in my reply? I'm not sure what comparing atrocities adds to the discussion past deflection from justifiable criticism as others have already alluded to tbh. I understand the point you are making suggesting some people are out there that may... Quote think Russia isn't committing war crimes while they think Israel are But I haven't seen any evidence of that on VT (although as I say I'm less inclined to read the entirity of the Ukraine thread) and you're certainly not talking to any such person while engaging with me. As I highlight with the Leyton Orient bit, I don't agree with the concept that one has to comment on everything in order to comment on something. If people base arguments on false assumptions we're veering off into the realm of the strawman and that helps no one or the wider discussion imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 7 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: But I haven't seen any evidence of that on VT having read a few more pages I see there's a few pages dedicated to debating exactly this, I'm not trying to re-open that can of worms, or go to bat for other posters, more embellishing upon my point about the noted correlation of posters and threads and inference of a hidden agenda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 (edited) 21 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: I'm happy to fall into the category of not being an expert on either conflict tbh. I feel the 'as far as I'm aware' I wrote was doing some work on either sentence that followed and provides the retort to your closing statement, but fair cop, there's a full stop and the Russians obviously have attempted to use slavophobia as justification for their actions as per your post. I appreciate in the wider community one will encounter all sorts of people and opinions, and I can't speak for other posters internal motivations behind posting any more than I would infer to know what they are or present them in a falacious context. It's the inference that there were 'telling' motivations behind criticising Israel in this thread if we don't also criticise Russia in another thread that compelled me to weigh in. Despite my incorrect statement that you've highlighted, would you agree with my second sentence there that you've quoted, about manifold and varied reasoning? Or do you agree with the other poster - do you feel there's something 'telling' about it, whatever that might mean, that I did not touch upon in my reply? I'm not sure what comparing atrocities adds to the discussion past deflection from justifiable criticism as others have already alluded to tbh. I understand the point you are making suggesting some people are out there that may... But I haven't seen any evidence of that on VT (although as I say I'm less inclined to read the entirity of the Ukraine thread) and you're certainly not talking to any such person while engaging with me. As I highlight with the Leyton Orient bit, I don't agree with the concept that one has to comment on everything in order to comment on something. If people base arguments on false assumptions we're veering off into the realm of the strawman and that helps no one or the wider discussion imho. I have absolutely no problem with people fighting for Palestine, I just have a massive gripe with people using Russia as an example better than Israel (like you did with your Slavophobia-Antisemitism remark) when most of the time it’s not remotely true. Having to deal with Pro-Palestinian supporters being both racist and dumb several times a week I’m probably more coloured than most on this, and the feeling I’m often left with is that a lot of the people who vehemently oppose Israel do so out of some weird world picture of Israel being the epitome of evil, when by statistics and war crimes they’re not even close. Russia has kidnapped more than three times more Ukrainian kids than Israel have inflicted casualties in total in Gaza including Hamas combatants, yet people argue that Russia isn’t willingly committing genocide. It reeks of differing standards. Standards I think are brought on by the Palestinian cause being pretty much all-consuming for their supporters which effectively cuts off oxygen for many of the other important issues and conflicts going on in the world. It's all they'll talk about, and when the protests affect Jews who aren't in Israel pretty much anyone can see it for what it is if they're willing to put aside their grief with Israel for one second. The other day I went on a protest for the a lot of the tribes people in Sudan/Darfur who are being ethnically cleansed by Arabs, I’m not seeing whole lot of engagement from the same groups who seem to argue vehemently about genocide in Gaza, we were maybe 200 people in total. I wonder why that is, when a similar demonstration against Israel brings out millions for less victims, less barbarity, a conflict where both sides are at fault and there is no clear ‘right side’ like with RSF butchering Massalit in example. Ironically it is South Africa that is trying to prosecute Israel for genocide while they're hosting the RSF leadership in SA quite often, even in the middle of one of the worst genocides in African history committed by RSF. Even more ironically pretty much none of the Arab 'big hitters' who use their entire days complaining about Israel in the West ever mention that RSF (Arabs) are ethnically cleansing pretty much anyone not Arab in Darfur. It seems to me that it is the perpetrators of the war crimes that matter the most, which again makes you think - doesn't it? How much have you heard about El-Fasher and the RSF besieging said city recently? How much have you heard about Rafah? Edited May 15 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Despicable human 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) To about no one's surprise the UN has figured out that Hamas' figures for deaths in Gaza are wrong after due pressure. Why did the UN change approach? Quote The GMO has consistently given a higher figure for the proportion of women and children in all fatalities than has the health ministry. On 6 May, the UN reported 34,735 deaths - of which there were 9,500 women and 14,500 children, citing the GMO as its source. The two days later, the UN released a further report, switching its sourcing to the health ministry. The result of this was that although the overall recorded death toll was almost unchanged (34,844), the number of registered deaths of women (4.959) and children (7,797) had both fallen significantly. This difference was because those individuals with incomplete information were not included in the demographic breakdown. Turns out a terrorist organisation trying to drum up support in the West lies. No one would've thought. The 'independent' sources the UN seems to have used until now were Hamas' health ministry workers. All children and women dying in war is horrible, but it's rather striking that the UN has essentially furthered Hamas' lies for 8 months, and now that the death toll has essentially slowed massively they're having to do some due diligence. It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall when the UN confronts the UNRWA bosses about this one. Quote For the GMO's figure to be compatible with the health ministry's data, almost all of the 10,000 deaths not fully identified by the ministry would have to have been women and children. "It's not logically impossible... but it really strains credibility," says Prof Michael Spagat, who specialises in examining death tolls in conflicts around the world. Edited May 16 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 16 VT Supporter Share Posted May 16 They also derided the UN as a 'terrorist organisation' earlier this week. Which is one of those things you hear and just think 'oh **** off' followed by never listening to a thing they said ever again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 9 minutes ago, magnkarl said: To about no one's surprise the UN has figured out that Hamas' figures for deaths in Gaza are wrong after due pressure. Why did the UN change approach? Turns out a terrorist organisation trying to drum up support in the West lies. No one would've thought. The 'independent' sources the UN seems to have used until now were Hamas' health ministry workers. All children and women dying in war is horrible, but it's rather striking that the UN has essentially furthered Hamas' lies for 8 months, and now that the death toll has essentially slowed massively they're having to do some due diligence. It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall when the UN confronts the UNRWA bosses about this one. I saw this same story. But I’ve only ever seen the 34,000 dead figure reported. tens of thousands dead, most of them innocent families, mothers, children, journalists, aid workers, aid delivery drivers approximately 10,000 children orphaned in a country where all societal support and infrastructure has been literally blown up I look at the pictures of flattened residential blocks and I have to suspect there are plenty of dead that have never been counted and will never be recovered There is nothing to relieve Israeli guilt, in exposing the exaggeration of terrorists 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 If anything I imagine there’s more dead than what’s quoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) On 13/05/2024 at 12:10, VILLAMARV said: I'm also perhaps one of those people you're referring to. What is 'telling' about it? What do you feel this correlation tells you? Surely people can condemn barbarism without having 'an interest' in doing so? It reads like you're suggesting there's an ulterioir motive on display from multiple posters in this thread. For the record, and to embelish on what the other answers have said - those of us of a certain age have been witnessing events unfold in Israel/Palestine since we were in nappies and old enough to stare at a screen. In a time before Embedded Journalism was so widespread and normalised too. I remember reports of Palestinians firing rockets at civilians, I grew up with the horrors of suicide bombers at markets and other gatherings being reported on after Tizwaz and Swap Shop et al. To not share an opinion on what we have collectively borne witness to over decades is the domain of people who have little interest in geo-politics and who, for whatever myriad of reasons, don't want to think about or talk about it. We as a nation, do not have a passive role in this and never have. Britain's involvement pre-dates the Balfour Treaty, we have provided armaments, our secret services are intertwined. Israel is much more than just your average run-of-the-mill military ally. A de-facto nuclear state that runs an apartheid regime, the actions of which seem only deemed newsworthy when attacked by others and a political framework (and wider society) over here that not only seems reticent to condemn the actions of, but in recent years having been rather publically wondering how to respond to the notion of criticism of a nation state being labelled the domain of antisemitics. A country whose political classes are demonstrably more inclined to act against potential transgressors of WTO trade agreements than against transgressors of International Human Rights Laws. FWIW, that last sentence is the 'telling' bit to my way of thinking. Not some odd correlation of VT posters and threads. I find the Ukraine thread hawkish. I think of videos of tanks being blown to pieces along the same lines as snuff videos and I'm still wondering when it became socially acceptable to share/watch them, let alone share in any delight over them. It's hard for me to join in with 'take that putin' style rhetoric when I'm usually thinking about the poor lied to, propagandised young Russian lads sitting in the tank waiting to die. It's one of the threads that when the next unread topic button leads me there I scroll, mostly without reading anything, to the end of the last page and leave. A bit like the wrestling thread - it's not for me. I appreciate there are ex-military posters and engineers and so on among us who have different backgrounds to mine that have their life's work entwined with some of these machines of war and I'm not so far gone down the committed pacifist road that I don't understand there's a real need for a defensive force. I come from a military family. And then, as others have alluded to, I don't have the years, nay decades, of emotional attachment to that comparitively recent conflict as I do to the one I've borne witness to since sentience. As far as I'm aware, the news doesn't try to tell me how justified the aggressor is. The Russians haven't tried to conflate criticism of the Russian State or it's leaders with Slavophobia. The differences that contribute to commenting on one conflict and not the other are surely manifold and varied. I don't subscribe to binary thoughts of good and evil when it comes to nation states or geo-politics. I'll leave that up to works of fiction. But I have no problem ascribing those labels to individual acts. Doesn't make a difference to me if it's British, Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Iranians, Saudis or Americans - murder is murder, war crimes are war crimes. There is no need to address all atrocities at the same time in order to comment on what we see in front of our eyes - any more than I need to comment on the Leyton Orient result to have an opinion on the Villa game. I don't pretend my nation of birth hasn't committed atrocities, propped up fascist dictatorships, stood idly by while ethnic cleansing takes place, engaged in rendition for allies to torture 'some folks', publically backed apartheid regimes and so on, so it's of little surprise that here we are again engaging in - at best - morally dubious tacet approval of many of those things once more. Unfortunately, there seems to be little appetite for holding these power stuctures and individuals within them to account for their crimes. I'd like to think this post argues a humanitarian viewpoint. It's how I view and categorise my own beliefs and it's certainly what drives me to add comment in this thread and many others. Although we've disagreed on this topic in the past, no, you weren't actually one of the people I was referring to here. But given the time you spent writing that reply I'm happy to elaborate on what I meant in my previous post. So clearly there's any number of reasons why people might post in the Israel thread but not the Ukraine thread. Some good, some bad. At one end of the spectrum, an example of a good reason to be more interested in Gaza is because the West is more complicit in what's happening there. At the other end of the spectrum, there's people that have an ideological issue with Israel and always will do. The reason I brought up Ukraine specifically is because some of the criticism aimed at Israel is part of a wider anti-Western ideological crusade. Some of this happens at the level of the nation state, where countries such as Russia, China or South Africa simply see the crisis as an opportunity to discredit the West for their own gain. But there's also Western individuals and political parties that have anti-Western views; e.g. George Galloway, or to a lesser extent Jeremy Corbyn. Ukraine represents an awkward situation for them and their supporters because they obviously can't bring themselves to support NATO, so they either have to pretend the conflict isn't happening or to some degree find themselves supporting the imperialism of an increasingly fascist Russia. The cynical part of my brain was just wondering how many people on this forum (or in the various anti-Israel protests) fall into that latter category, as I feel like there's definitely some people active in this thread who have a Galloway-esque take on the world (example quote on Ukraine below) and are viewing events through that lens. On 21/01/2022 at 23:57, OutByEaster? said: The Ukraine is a bad situation - an aggressive NATO policy supported by the traditional CIA, insert fascist puppet government and take over coup attempt (The Revolution of Digninty!) has backfired a little as Putin seems to have decided to take advantage of that period of uncertainty to assert his own claim on the place. It's a peculiar place to start with, with a lot of the country identifying as Russian and a lot of the country identifying as anything but Russian - it's a volatile pot that's been stirred in more than one direction. Edited May 16 by Panto_Villan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 11 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I saw this same story. But I’ve only ever seen the 34,000 dead figure reported. tens of thousands dead, most of them innocent families, mothers, children, journalists, aid workers, aid delivery drivers approximately 10,000 children orphaned in a country where all societal support and infrastructure has been literally blown up I look at the pictures of flattened residential blocks and I have to suspect there are plenty of dead that have never been counted and will never be recovered There is nothing to relieve Israeli guilt, in exposing the exaggeration of terrorists That wasn't the point though, the point was that the absolute over-blowing of the figures for women and children seems to have been a total lie from the get-go, and noe one in the media space wanted to confront that until someone did the work and confronted the facts. It just doesn't make sense in a population where there's as many men as women - that so many women have died and not men. People swallowed it whole. That isn't to say that Israel is right or a way to write that down, but just like with Ukraine we can't just ignore the facts because we want the Palestinians to have a state. As the professor in the story stated, it absolutely shreds an already stretched credibility for the Pro-Palestinian cause when their arguments often fall to pieces when scrutinized. The figures and how they've been reported is, at least from some places a PR-excersise. Do you see Ukraine stating that women died? They state that civilians died, sometimes children. That's not to say that it hasn't worked, people have been up in arms for half a year about figures that are wrong, and seems to have been selectively reported wrong. The figures are still reported by a health ministry put there by the organisation that still holds over 100 people hostage. Edited May 17 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 44 minutes ago, magnkarl said: That wasn't the point though, the point was that the absolute over-blowing of the figures for women and children seems to have been a total lie from the get-go, and noe one in the media space wanted to confront that until someone did the work and confronted the facts. It just doesn't make sense in a population where there's as many men as women - that so many women have died and not men. People swallowed it whole. That isn't to say that Israel is right or a way to write that down, but just like with Ukraine we can't just ignore the facts because we want the Palestinians to have a state. As the professor in the story stated, it absolutely shreds an already stretched credibility for the Pro-Palestinian cause when their arguments often fall to pieces when scrutinized. The figures and how they've been reported is, at least from some places a PR-excersise. Do you see Ukraine stating that women died? They state that civilians died, sometimes children. That's not to say that it hasn't worked, people have been up in arms for half a year about figures that are wrong, and seems to have been selectively reported wrong. The figures are still reported by a health ministry put there by the organisation that still holds over 100 people hostage. That’s why it’s important to only use some sort of reliable media. You can’t just believe or retweet something from lowkey, or Hamas, or the IDF. The BBC for their faults and perceived slowness have never reported a figure of more than 34,000 dead and a further 10,0000 orphaned children. The other issue, is the problem long term and short term of getting reliable reporting from Gaza. As Palestine is essentially not a country but a refugee camp run by terrorists which has suited Israel, all ‘official’ statistics and bodies will be suspect. Add in to that the lack of journalism from this conflict with Israel not allowing journalistic access, or accidentally shooting some independent journalists dead, verifying any figures becomes close to impossible. It starts to come down to who you believe, Netanyahu, or Hamas. Now there’s a choice. I think you’re kidding yourself if you think inflated death figures are what people are ‘up in arms’ about. For me,, personally, it’s more about our endorsement of 8 months of war crimes and destruction with little or no regard for whether its Hamas or an 8 year old that was shot in the back of the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: That’s why it’s important to only use some sort of reliable media. You can’t just believe or retweet something from lowkey, or Hamas, or the IDF. The BBC for their faults and perceived slowness have never reported a figure of more than 34,000 dead and a further 10,0000 orphaned children. The other issue, is the problem long term and short term of getting reliable reporting from Gaza. As Palestine is essentially not a country but a refugee camp run by terrorists which has suited Israel, all ‘official’ statistics and bodies will be suspect. Add in to that the lack of journalism from this conflict with Israel not allowing journalistic access, or accidentally shooting some independent journalists dead, verifying any figures becomes close to impossible. It starts to come down to who you believe, Netanyahu, or Hamas. Now there’s a choice. I think you’re kidding yourself if you think inflated death figures are what people are ‘up in arms’ about. For me,, personally, it’s more about our endorsement of 8 months of war crimes and destruction with little or no regard for whether its Hamas or an 8 year old that was shot in the back of the head. UNRWA and aid organisations have been present in Gaza since day 1. Why do you think DWB are purposely not reporting on deaths? Not even in the hospitals they're working in. Personally I think (and see a lot in London) there's an awful lot of loud, crazy, obnoxious supporters of Palestine who absolutely use these figures for whatever they're worth. As I think @Panto_Villan wrote in a better manner than myself, there's a fairly clear tendency among at least a large minority of the people who protest for Palestine to not care so much about facts, but rather use whatever ammunition they can to be absolute ¤%#¤ due to their completely bonkers world view, which includes hating on the Western values that keep them safe, while at the same time sympathizing with fundamentalists, fascists and reactionaries because they're 'against NATO and the US, innit'. Even after 7 months of people trying to get through to a large minority in the protests you'll find some awful stuff right at the front of the protests for Palestine in London, like calling for intifada even when the last intifada meant suicide bombs in student cafes, outside of nightclubs (killing children and women), and other horrible things. Half a year later, I still see zero people in the marches calling for Hamas to be done or to release the hostages, it's all very hypocritical that they only care about victims of a certain type, and when the perpetrators of violence against said victims are of the same nationality there's absolutely zilch being said. Nothing drums up people like their hate for Israel. Haniyeh must be over the moon, there's absolutely no low he can't stoop to even with a 60% support among Palestinians, which would mean that his (large minority of) Western supporters won't back his cause to the hilt. Edited May 17 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 45 minutes ago, magnkarl said: .......which includes hating on the Western values that keep them safe, while at the same time sympathizing with fundamentalists, fascists, reactionaries because they're 'against NATO and the US, innit'. This is my main problem with a large proportion of the Palestinian support. It's people walking in complete safety along UK streets using their right to reasonable free speech and right to demonstrate and then criticising the western stance. At one march I saw a banner "LGBT+ for Hamas". The stupidity of the sign is breathtaking. Those people were either ignorant, stupid or just out to protest against anything. Supporting Palestine has become trendy and righteous. Palestine and Israel are both to blame. But you wouldn't think it when you see a demonstration. How about if the marches called for the release of Israeli hostages and carried coffins inscribed with the names of Israel's dead? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 17 Popular Post Share Posted May 17 (edited) I need to get this off my chest. I know I will take a lot of stick for it, but here goes...... Prior to the Hamas attacks the Gaza Strip was mostly peaceful. There were no/a tiny amount of Israel forces in Gaza. There was a clearly defined border. Palestinians administered the land and the population. The majority of the population had access to schools and medical care. The world was sending aid designed to make their lives better. Israel was providing water and electricity. Israel controlled the borders in an attempt to stop arms shipments into the country. They mainly succeeded but repeated missile launches showed that weapons were still making it inside to the racist, sexist, homophobic Hamas. To my simple mind, that's a pretty good deal for an occupied people. I am sure the Palestinian didn't consider themselves to be "free" in the western definition of the word. But many wouldn't have been "free" in the western definition of the word if Israel didn't exist. I hate the lack of balance in this whole argument. I hate the failure to recognise the clear facts. I hate that we have marches highlighting the Palestinian civilian deaths without mentioning the Israel civilian deaths. I hate that a complex situation with 4000 years of history behind it has become a "Good v Evil" issue when it's nothing of the sort. Edited May 17 by Mandy Lifeboats Spelling mishsteaks 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 36 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: I need to get this off my chest. I know I will take a lot of stick for it, but here goes...... Prior to the Hamas attacks the Gaza Strip was mostly peaceful. There were no/a tiny amount of Israel forces in Gaza. There was a clearly defined border. Palestinians administered the land and the population. The majority of the population had access to schools and medical care. The world was sending aid designed to make their lives better. Israel was providing water and electricity. Israel controlled the borders in an attempt to stop arms shipments into the country. They mainly succeeded but repeated missile launches showed that weapons were still making it inside to the racist, sexist, homophobic Hamas. To my simple mind, that's a pretty good deal for an occupied people. I am sure the Palestinian didn't consider themselves to be "free" in the western definition of the word. But many wouldn't have been "free" in the western definition of the word if Israel didn't exist. I hate the lack of balance in this whole argument. I hate the failure to recognise the clear facts. I hate that we have marches highlighting the Palestinian civilian deaths without mentioning the Israel civilian deaths. I hate that a comples situation with 4000 years of history behind it has become a "Good v Evil" issue when it's nothing of the sort. It’s also worth mentioning that Israel used to provide work permits to Palestinians to earn far higher wages in Israel and then bring that money back to Gaza. The numbers of Palestinians taking advantage of these was in the hundreds of thousands before Hamas took over, it was worth millions to Gaza’s economy. Once Hamas came to power they banned Palestinians from being able to use the work permits. The scheme was revived a few years ago and year on year the numbers of permits were increased, until the most recent Hamas attack. Now the scheme is dead again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) Oh what a beacon of hope Israel is. The people in Gaza should be grateful. Lots of generalisations going on in this thread and lots of forgetting of the numerous war crimes Israel commits on a yearly basis, even before the occupation. 99% of protestors are anti Hamas but suddenly they are all pro Hamas. Using one placard as an example. Glad I don't go on this thread that much anymore. Edited May 17 by omariqy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 11 minutes ago, omariqy said: Oh what a beacon if hope Israel is. The people in Gaza should be grateful. Lots of generalisations going on in this thread and lots of forgetting of the numerous war crimes Israel commits on a yearly basis, even before the occupation. 99% of protestors are anti Hamas but suddenly they are all pro Hamas. Using one placard as an example. Glad I don't go on this thread that much anymore. One placard? I suggest you head down to London and have a walk around the Pro-Palestinian protests. Here's a few from a quick google, since you seem to think it's a small problem. ' I don't see anyone confronting these people if it's a tiny minority, I rather see people joining in. Who called Israel a beacon of hope? Again, Pro-Palestinians show an almost uncanny ability to deny that their side is doing anything wrong. They don't want to be confronted with hostages, terror, toppling the only majority Christian nation in the ME(Lebanon) and the general "#¤% Palestinians have caused throughout this saga. Israel is obviously not a beacon of hope, but it is by far the most democratic, tolerant and progressive state in a sea of undemocratic fundamentalist nations barring its most recent right wing idiot government. Edited May 17 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 18 minutes ago, magnkarl said: One placard? I suggest you head down to London and have a walk around the Pro-Palestinian protests. Here's a few from a quick google, since you seem to think it's a small problem. ' I don't see anyone confronting these people if it's a tiny minority, I rather see people joining in. Who called Israel a beacon of hope? Again, Pro-Palestinians show an almost uncanny ability to deny that their side is doing anything wrong. They don't want to be confronted with hostages, terror, toppling the only majority Christian nation in the ME(Lebanon) and the general "#¤% Palestinians have caused throughout this saga. Israel is obviously not a beacon of hope, but it is by far the most democratic, tolerant and progressive state in a sea of undemocratic fundamentalist nations barring its most recent right wing idiot government. Pro Palestine is not the same as pro Hamas. I was talking about the placard another poster was referring to. I’ve been to many of these protests. Many with the Jewish voice for peace. We’ve already discussed what intifada means to these people or what to the river to the sea means. Most are not using those slogans like you want them to be using them for. Of course there’s gonna be a minority of idiots and racists etc. In that large of a crowd. Israel is the very definition of a fundamentalist nation. I hope the irony is not lost on you. It was founded via terror and terrorists. Let’s not pretend the right wing stance is a recent thing. I want peace for both. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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