Israel, Palestine and Iran

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering out loud here - why the heck would any Israeli want to live anywhere near the Gaza strip?

I saw a report of a family being killed in a small village, the village was literally behind the wall surrounding the strip.

At what point over the last x years does one think - heck, I gotta get out of here? 

Sure people have jobs and houses, kids go to a local school. But wouldn't you want your family out of there at some point over the last 20-30 years?! 

For all the talk of 'This is my homeland' it's a war zone with frequent terrorist attacks and rocket strikes. 

The people who live in that area are typically members of a hippie style commune. They live off the land and have communal accommodation etc the arrangement is called a kibbutz  

They are the left wing pacifists who believe they can live side by side with the Gazans. 

 

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Only one side is doing it. 

Did we forget 7.10? Do you honestly believe that Israel is the only side 'doing it'?

Both sides seem intent on completely wiping out the other, one with bombs, the other with jihad.

[meregreen]

1 minute ago, omariqy said:

Only one side is doing it. 

It’s not Genocide. If it were. No one would be walking out of Gaza City. It’s war, war is cruel, war is horrible, war is the ultimate example of human failure. Every war in history has resulted in mass casualties of innocent people. From carpet bombing German cities, to dropping agent orange in Vietnam. By its very nature innocents die. This is just another example of how dreadful war can be. But, there are no death camps here, no gas chambers,no organised campaign to exterminate an entire race. There’s war, just bloody war.

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, meregreen said:

It’s not Genocide. If it were. No one would be walking out of Gaza City. It’s war, war is cruel, war is horrible, war is the ultimate example of human failure. Every war in history has resulted in mass casualties of innocent people. From carpet bombing German cities, to dropping agent orange in Vietnam. By its very nature innocents die. This is just another example of how dreadful war can be. But, there are no death camps here, no gas chambers,no organised campaign to exterminate an entire race. There’s war, just bloody war.

From the UN website (I know faith in the UN has been suspended during the killing fields phase)

Quote

Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements: 

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and 

A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:

Killing members of the group

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

I think that’s Gaza covered. It’s genocide, it’s ethnic cleansing, its mass murder of civilians for revenge.

I think Hamas would do the same had they concentrated on building an economy capable of being an industrial military power like Israel. ‘Fortunately’ for Israel, its worst enemies appear content with sending brainwashed young men to martyr themselves. Iran’s potential for a bomb is the real threat and why ‘the west’ has to take all measures to ensure they never achieve that goal.

 

[Mic09]

18 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The people who live in that area are typically members of a hippie style commune. They live off the land and have communal accommodation etc the arrangement is called a kibbutz  

They are the left wing pacifists who believe they can live side by side with the Gazans. 

 

I don't know, I had a quick look on google maps street view and it looks like a lot of villas with beautiful palm/olive trees and decent cars.

Sure hippies are not what they used to be in the 60s, but it seems a bit of a stretch from that! 

[meregreen]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

From the UN website (I know faith in the UN has been suspended during the killing fields phase)

I think that’s Gaza covered. It’s genocide, it’s ethnic cleansing, its mass murder of civilians for revenge.

I think Hamas would do the same had they concentrated on building an economy capable of being an industrial military power like Israel. ‘Fortunately’ for Israel, its worst enemies appear content with sending brainwashed young men to martyr themselves. Iran’s potential for a bomb is the real threat and why ‘the west’ has to take all measures to ensure they never achieve that goal.

 

We’ll have to disagree on that then. To me it’s war. In the worst possible environment, a heavily built up populated city. If that rather narrow UN definition stands. Then every war in history was Genocide. Can you give me an example of a war where large numbers of innocents didn’t die. It’s war, there is no clean version of it.

[LondonLax]

22 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I don't know, I had a quick look on google maps street view and it looks like a lot of villas with beautiful palm/olive trees and decent cars.

Sure hippies are not what they used to be in the 60s, but it seems a bit of a stretch from that! 

Write ‘kibbutz’ into Google maps and it gives an idea. 

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, meregreen said:

We’ll have to disagree on that then. To me it’s war. In the worst possible environment, a heavily built up populated city. If that rather narrow UN definition stands. Then every war in history was Genocide. Can you give me an example of a war where large numbers of innocents didn’t die. It’s war, there is no clean version of it.

You have to disagree with the official UN definition of genocide?

That’s fair enough, you’re in good company.

Examples of ‘just’ war are few and far between. Giving it 2 minutes of thinking, maybe the Falklands? Maybe the Ukraine’s defence at present? Maybe the war against ISIS? But I have a bias against war, I tend to think its a bad thing that’s best avoided.

 

 

[Mic09]

3 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Write ‘kibbutz’ into Google maps and it gives an idea. 

Thanks, but the question remains - at what point do come back from work and sit down to dinner with your mrs and say:

''Hey honey, how was your day? Moshe's family next door have been killed by terrorists and another road was closed during the bombing's - do you reckon, maybe, we should pack our bags and get the hell out of here?''

[LondonLax]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

Thanks, but the question remains - at what point do come back from work and sit down to dinner with your mrs and say:

''Hey honey, how was your day? Moshe's family next door have been killed by terrorists and another road was closed during the bombing's - do you reckon, maybe, we should pack our bags and get the hell out of here?''

People there live quite different lifestyles to you and I. I suspect putting our perspective on it is always going to be difficult.

It might be that you cannot live a communal kibbutz lifestyle in another place and the possibility of living under that philosophy is considered to be worth the risk? 

From what I understand the mindset in those communities is to find a peaceful way to live with Palestinians. For example that old lady who had been taken hostage and was later released was wishing blessings on her captors.

It kind of makes it more tragic that they were some of the hardest hit communities by the Hamas attacks. 

[meregreen]

47 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

People there live quite different lifestyles to you and I. I suspect putting our perspective on it is always going to be difficult.

It might be that you cannot live a communal kibbutz lifestyle in another place and the possibility of living under that philosophy is considered to be worth the risk? 

From what I understand the mindset in those communities is to find a peaceful way to live with Palestinians. For example that old lady who had been taken hostage and was later released was wishing blessings on her captors.

It kind of makes it more tragic that they were some of the hardest hit communities by the Hamas attacks. 

Trying to pigeonhole entire communities into one type, is a mistake. I’ve no doubt it does take a fairly strong person to live that close to people, who have amongst them an element who would happily cut your throat. And I have immense respect for anyone who knowing that, can still harbour goodwill to them. On the other hand, I saw a clip yesterday of a West Bank settler walk up to a Palestinian , and simply shoot him, all while an Israeli soldier watched on. Total opposites. One can only hope that the more enlightened elements from both communities will eventually prevail. We seem an awfully long way from that though.

[omariqy]

2 hours ago, meregreen said:

It’s not Genocide. If it were. No one would be walking out of Gaza City. It’s war, war is cruel, war is horrible, war is the ultimate example of human failure. Every war in history has resulted in mass casualties of innocent people. From carpet bombing German cities, to dropping agent orange in Vietnam. By its very nature innocents die. This is just another example of how dreadful war can be. But, there are no death camps here, no gas chambers,no organised campaign to exterminate an entire race. There’s war, just bloody war.

So was 7/10 just war then, just bloody war? Hamas officials have been on TV to say they did not want to kill civilians just take hostages so they could exchange them for the 15000 Palestinan hostages currently being held by Israel. Civilians just got caught in the crossfire according to them. Now I like most on here think of myself as a decent human being so I abhor innocent civilans being killed and I know when to believe a statement like that and when to not (I don't believe Hamas given their history). But if thats what they say then how is that different to Israel. Any Palestinian violence justifies any Israeli violence, but no Israeli violence ever justifies any Palestinian violence. Let's not forget the ethnic cleansing began in 1948 not 7/10. Hamas is a product of its environment. Its a terrible result and a murderous result but it is a result. You follow any one of the journalists on the ground or the eye of Palestine instagram account and tell me its not a genocide. Purposefully targeting hospitals, ambulances, UN schools and families of journalists is murder, plain and simple. Latest figures show anywhere between 10 to 20 Hamas individuals have been killed and over 12,000 Civilians (conservative) have been killed. Never mind the ones left without limbs, mental trauama and no family. That's 99% plus innocent people being killed. 

[meregreen]

25 minutes ago, omariqy said:

So was 7/10 just war then, just bloody war? Hamas officials have been on TV to say they did not want to kill civilians just take hostages so they could exchange them for the 15000 Palestinan hostages currently being held by Israel. Civilians just got caught in the crossfire according to them. Now I like most on here think of myself as a decent human being so I abhor innocent civilans being killed and I know when to believe a statement like that and when to not (I don't believe Hamas given their history). But if thats what they say then how is that different to Israel. Any Palestinian violence justifies any Israeli violence, but no Israeli violence ever justifies any Palestinian violence. Let's not forget the ethnic cleansing began in 1948 not 7/10. Hamas is a product of its environment. Its a terrible result and a murderous result but it is a result. You follow any one of the journalists on the ground or the eye of Palestine instagram account and tell me its not a genocide. Purposefully targeting hospitals, ambulances, UN schools and families of journalists is murder, plain and simple. Latest figures show anywhere between 10 to 20 Hamas individuals have been killed and over 12,000 Civilians (conservative) have been killed. Never mind the ones left without limbs, mental trauama and no family. That's 99% plus innocent people being killed. 

Like I said, there are no clean wars, only wars that inflict immense suffering on innocents. This is not Genocide. Barbarrosa, the Holocaust, Cambodia, Armenia, Rwanda, was Genocide. This doesn’t even come close to those.

Edited November 9, 2023 by meregreen

[Thug]

2 hours ago, meregreen said:

We’ll have to disagree on that then. To me it’s war. In the worst possible environment, a heavily built up populated city. If that rather narrow UN definition stands. Then every war in history was Genocide. Can you give me an example of a war where large numbers of innocents didn’t die. It’s war, there is no clean version of it.

You best remind these people that there’s a war going on

 

https://www.cxtvlive.com/live-camera/tel-aviv

Above link takes you to a live webcam of people surfing and relaxing on a beach at the Carlton, Tel Aviv.

There are many webcam streams available from Israel showing life going on pretty much as normal.

 

Here’s a link to get a flight from Manchester to the middle of your ‘warzone’ day after tomorrow.

https://www.skyscanner.net/transport/flights/uk/tela/231114/231121/?adultsv2=1&cabinclass=economy&childrenv2=&ref=home&rtn=1&preferdirects=false&outboundaltsenabled=false&inboundaltsenabled=false
 

 

[OutByEaster?]

In terms of aims and the aftermath of this, I have some questions and (possibly due to my own bias perhaps) can only see one outcome that would work for Israel.

I read a few days back that more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza have now been damaged or destroyed, and yesterday I read of a politician (I'm sorry, I can't remember from where) talking about the need for a 'Marshall plan' for Gaza - a massive fund that will be required to build enough places for the two million Gaza based Palestinians to live in after the conflict.

And then thinking about that, I remember that the UN considers the Israelis to be an occupying power, responsible for Gaza due to their control over entrance and exit of goods by air, road and sea and their management of movement of people and so on. Israel is required to supply Gaza with much of its basic needs in terms of power and water for example. Surely then, that would mean that the international position on this would be that, at the end of hostilities, it's Israel that will be required to provide housing for the remaining population?

I'm not sure I can see Israel putting themselves into a recession in order to spend hundreds of billions of shekels building new apartments for the two million people whose homes they've just destroyed.

That, for me, adds to the message that Israel have repeatedly stated, openly, that they will no longer tolerate a position where their population in the South will ever live under the threat of rockets again - a position that simply won't be possible with the new generation of homeless, orphaned, angry Gazan Palestinians that we're watching be created at the moment, living on their doorstep.

If it's the case that Israel has to (even in part) foot the bill, or (wholly) accept responsibility for the repair of Gaza for the benefit of Palestinians - for me, it makes it less and less possible for Israel to consider an outcome to this conflict where Palestinians live in Gaza - how can they do that if it is against their aims and massively damaging to their economy?

It's hard to see any successful endgame here for Israel that includes the ongoing existence of Palestine and a return to what, up until this summer, was 'business as usual'.

That, I think, creates a big problem for Israel in that the US seems to be openly and strongly against the idea of de-Gaza-ing Israel and has stated it wants a solution to the conflict that results in a Palestinian Gaza (governed by the same people who govern the West Bank) occupied (if you'll excuse the word) by Palestinian people.

I guess the bug question for me (if we can overlook the moral questions on the slaughter of civilians) is, who will be paying for this?

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

In terms of aims and the aftermath of this, I have some questions and (possibly due to my own bias perhaps) can only see one outcome that would work for Israel.

I read a few days back that more than 50% of the buildings in Gaza have now been damaged or destroyed, and yesterday I read of a politician (I'm sorry, I can't remember from where) talking about the need for a 'Marshall plan' for Gaza - a massive fund that will be required to build enough places for the two million Gaza based Palestinians to live in after the conflict.

And then thinking about that, I remember that the UN considers the Israelis to be an occupying power, responsible for Gaza due to their control over entrance and exit of goods by air, road and sea and their management of movement of people and so on. Israel is required to supply Gaza with much of its basic needs in terms of power and water for example. Surely then, that would mean that the international position on this would be that, at the end of hostilities, it's Israel that will be required to provide housing for the remaining population?

I'm not sure I can see Israel putting themselves into a recession in order to spend hundreds of billions of shekels building new apartments for the two million people whose homes they've just destroyed.

That, for me, adds to the message that Israel have repeatedly stated, openly, that they will no longer tolerate a position where their population in the South will ever live under the threat of rockets again - a position that simply won't be possible with the new generation of homeless, orphaned, angry Gazan Palestinians that we're watching be created at the moment, living on their doorstep.

If it's the case that Israel has to (even in part) foot the bill, or (wholly) accept responsibility for the repair of Gaza for the benefit of Palestinians - for me, it makes it less and less possible for Israel to consider an outcome to this conflict where Palestinians live in Gaza - how can they do that if it is against their aims and massively damaging to their economy?

It's hard to see any successful endgame here for Israel that includes the ongoing existence of Palestine and a return to what, up until this summer, was 'business as usual'.

That, I think, creates a big problem for Israel in that the US seems to be openly and strongly against the idea of de-Gaza-ing Israel and has stated it wants a solution to the conflict that results in a Palestinian Gaza (governed by the same people who govern the West Bank) occupied (if you'll excuse the word) by Palestinian people.

I guess the bug question for me (if we can overlook the moral questions on the slaughter of civilians) is, who will be paying for this?

I guess you'd need to consider what other warring nations did to repair their target enemy infrastructure. We repaired West-Germany and actually made a difference to Germans so that they didn't go back to extremes (apart from East-Germany ofc.) To me it's a no brainer that we need to lift the people of Gaza out of squalor and extremism by making their lives better in their own country. Take any 'overlordship' away from Israel and Egypt, start giving people rights in their own country and get rid of any political element that is extreme (like our counter terrorism laws). That said, we don't exactly have a great history of repairing the nation's we've f-ed over since WW2. Whole neighbourhoods in Tripoli, Baghdad and Basra are still ruins because of our bombing.

Make Gaza and the West Bank international mandate areas and lift the people who are actually for democracy within the PA. If at any point there is a rocket fired or a bomb dropped there needs to be consequences for either side. In this current climate only the extremists in both Israel and Palestine prosper, we need to take away their verbal ammunition.

Edited November 9, 2023 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

11 minutes ago, Thug said:

You best remind these people that there’s a war going on

 

https://www.cxtvlive.com/live-camera/tel-aviv

Above link takes you to a live webcam of people surfing and relaxing on a beach at the Carlton, Tel Aviv.

There are many webcam streams available from Israel showing life going on pretty much as normal.

 

Here’s a link to get a flight from Manchester to the middle of your ‘warzone’ day after tomorrow.

https://www.skyscanner.net/transport/flights/uk/tela/231114/231121/?adultsv2=1&cabinclass=economy&childrenv2=&ref=home&rtn=1&preferdirects=false&outboundaltsenabled=false&inboundaltsenabled=false
 

 

I get the sentiment, but you could also book a flight to Ft. Lauderdale while the US was terrorbombing Baghdad, and you'd likely also find people surfing in Swansea Bay while we were pretending to be looking for WMDs in Iraq or bombing Mosul.

I don't think you can equate people on the beach with anything other than people being people, I'm sure there are some people on the beach resort that is about 1km from the Rafah crossing in Egypt too. People are just people.

[OutByEaster?]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I guess you'd need to consider what other warring nations did to repair their target enemy infrastructure. We repaired West-Germany and actually made a difference to Germans so that they didn't go back to extremes (apart from East-Germany ofc.) To me it's a no brainer that we need to lift the people of Gaza out of squalor and extremism by making their lives better in their own country. Take any 'overlordship' away from Israel and Egypt, start giving people rights in their own country and get rid of any political element that is extreme (like our counter terrorism laws). That said, we don't exactly have a great history of repairing the nation's we've f-ed over since WW2. Whole neighbourhoods in Tripoli, Baghdad and Basra are still ruins because of our bombing.

Are you suggesting then a war loans type of situation where Israel loans huge amounts of money to a Palestinian authority in order for them to do that?

It's a very unique situation in that I'm not sure whether Baghdad or Basra for example would still be in ruins if they were situated in Florida - it's not often a country creates this situation in a war with a region that its already responsible for. I'm trying to find a reasonable comparison but struggling.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

Are you suggesting then a war loans type of situation where Israel loans huge amounts of money to a Palestinian authority in order for them to do that?

It's a very unique situation in that I'm not sure whether Baghdad or Basra for example would still be in ruins if they were situated in Florida - it's not often a country creates this situation in a war with a region that its already responsible for. I'm trying to find a reasonable comparison but struggling.

You can find examples, but not many within democratic nations. You've got Grozny which was pretty much flattened by Russia, then rebuilt to a shadow of itself and still harbours extremism. You've also got Manipur in India which tbh sees daily bombing by extremist Hindu police\army, which I'm not sure of the outcome of yet.

I reckon war loans would be a good idea yes, though with very strict followup. We can't just put piping in the ground for Hamas to dig up and use as rockets again, and much of the aid that has gone to Gaza has been hijacked by Hamas.

Marshall aid used to be handed out with inspectors from America, maybe that'd be an idea, just with a nation that Palestinians trust rather than USA (India\Turkey\Morocco perhaps?)

[chrisp65]

Israel have already suggested three possible plans.

The first I heard, was that Egypt could take in 2.4 million refugees and from there they could be dispersed around the Arab world. I believe our good friend tumbley liked this one. Then when that wasn’t greeted with universal approval, they suggested that the rebuilding costs could be shared out between all the Arab nations. Then when that got quite a luke warm reception, they announced that perhaps they would stay there as an occupier and impose perma Marshall law in the dust. At that point the U.S. ally began to squirm on their seat and suggest that might not be a great idea.

I think Israel might soon suggest they’ve come up with three distinct plans, now they wash their hands of it and someone else can come up with plan 4.

That’s probably the point when Israel, U.S.A., and U.K. remember that UN thing and suggest all sides recognise their important role in sorting out such things.

But that’s for later, there’s still blood to spill yet. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by chrisp65