Israel, Palestine and Iran

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

Nothing gives you carte blanche to bomb an extremely densely populated area with airstrikes artillery and sending in the tanks.

Bomber Harris says Hi

[Tumblerseven]

25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

On October 7th, there were around 400 IDF forces killed and around 1,000 civilians - going by your numbers on acceptable losses in a combat situation - that's almost acceptable or justifiable.

That's what you're saying right?

Until you start to place the same value on the lives of the children that were killed last night in Gaza as you do on the lives of the children that were killed on October the 7th, it's hard to see how you'll ever understand the point of view of people who disagree with you.

The attacks on civilians on 7th October were an act of terrorism and completely unacceptable, the acts by Israel on bombing ambulances, hospitals, schools, refugee camps, areas of the West Bank and it's neighbours are acts of terrorism and completely unacceptable.

I can put words into your mouth too.

This guy just called a terrorist act where civilian population were targeted a combat situation. 

Its funny that you will say to me that i dont understand other people positions where you actually have no idea what i believe and what is my position. The first sentence alone i literally half an hour ago wrote that i dont count or look at the situation like that. So look at the mirror and apply your advice to yourself about trying to understand other people position.

Oh and i see you liked that SNE comment with answer ZERO. you want to elaborate?

Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[meregreen]

What’s happening now in Gaza, is called war, and it’s horrible. That’s what war is. There’s never been a war, ever, that didn’t result in innocents dying. It’s the ultimate example of human failure. No amount of handwringing will ever change that. Israel was attacked by a viscious, hate filled terrorist entity called Hamas, and innocents died, and has reacted violently, and innocents have died. Israel will ultimately have to decide what their ultimate goal is in this awful conflict. God knows where this will end. Probably, back where we’ve been for the last 75 years. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by meregreen

[El Segundo]

47 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

 

They think its occupying racist force and they think Palestinians have the right to fight back through Hamas.

Just interested in whether or not you  think Israel is an occupying force?    

As a general principle, do you think that any people that has it's land occupied has a right to oppose that occupation (not by Hamas, but in general) ?  

 

[OutByEaster?]

57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

I can put words into your mouth too.

Go ahead.

57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

This guy just called a terrorist act where civilian population were targeted a combat situation. 

Wait, those are your words, from your mouth, you're "this guy".

57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Its funny that you will say to me that i dont understand other people positions where you actually have no idea what i believe and what is my position. 

Please, explain it then....

57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

 The first sentence alone i literally half an hour ago wrote that i dont count or look at the situation like that.

This sentence?

"On October 7th, there were around 400 IDF forces killed and around 1,000 civilians - going by your numbers on acceptable losses in a combat situation - that's almost acceptable or justifiable".

I'm struggling to find where you wrote that you don't count or look at the situation like that - but I'm pretty sure that's true - and indeed that's my point - if I can somehow get you to start to see the value of lives on both sides, then maybe it'll help you understand how most people feel about the current situation.

57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Oh and i see you liked that SNE comment with answer ZERO. you want to elaborate?

Yep, I think zero is the ideal answer. 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said:

I can put words into your mouth too.

This guy just called a terrorist act where civilian population were targeted a combat situation. 

Its funny that you will say to me that i dont understand other people positions where you actually have no idea what i believe and what is my position. The first sentence alone i literally half an hour ago wrote that i dont count or look at the situation like that. So look at the mirror and apply your advice to yourself about trying to understand other people position.

Oh and i see you liked that SNE comment with answer ZERO. you want to elaborate?

No amount of your misdirected anger or the IDF’s mis directed bombs will solve the problem Israel has been complicit in creating.

Threatening the orphaned children of murdered refugees will not get you what you crave.

 

[Tumblerseven]

2 hours ago, El Segundo said:

Just interested in whether or not you  think Israel is an occupying force?    

As a general principle, do you think that any people that has it's land occupied has a right to oppose that occupation (not by Hamas, but in general) ?  

 

Yes i think if you are occupied you can fight against occupiers military infrastructure and soldiers. There are other fighting methods besides violence. I think its very clearl that palestine didint apply seriously any other method only violence.

I think crazy radical zionist jewish settlers in west bank is occupying force and should be forcefully kicked out ASAP.

I dont think israel as a whole is occupying force because i dont think there was a country before israel in there. I can understand if people say there were palestinian villages and their land was occupied but im not living in fantasy land and i understand how countries are born and i understand that if you not prepared to build a country someone else will.

Do you think Palestine population support Hamas? if no what are you basing that opinion on?

Edited November 4, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[Jon]

2 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

how many one israeli life worth to me? i dont count it like that.

I see a terrorist organization who needs to be destroyed i see 40 0000 terrorists who needs to be destroyed i would say for me 80 000 civilian casualties deaths would be acceptable or justified. 

Can you now answer the question? If number is zero and war always requires civilian deaths in your opinion what Israel had to do after October 7? nothing?

Seek a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian/ Israeli issue. Dialogue. International condemnation of Hamas. Strengthen defences. 

But a lasting peace in the region is not built on war, murder and genocide.

I've personally never been a fan of 'an eye for an eye' or in this case '100 Palestinian eyes for every Israeli eye'. 

[Tumblerseven]

14 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yep, I think zero is the ideal answer. 

"wow what brave answer" to a question no one asked.

Can you tell me now how many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable in your view if israel wants to destroy 30 000 or 40 000 terrorists?

[Jon]

2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

"wow what brave answer" to a question no one asked.

Can you tell me now how many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable in your view if israel wants to destroy 30 000 or 40 000 terrorists?

Still zero for me.  

[Tumblerseven]

4 minutes ago, Jon said:

Seek a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian/ Israeli issue. Dialogue. International condemnation of Hamas. Strengthen defences. 

But a lasting peace in the region is not built on war, murder and genocide.

I've personally never been a fan of 'an eye for an eye' or in this case '100 Palestinian eyes for every Israeli eye'. 

International condemnation of Hamas. Oh my god terrorists who bomb themselves and kill women and children are shaking from fear of it . How no one thought about that before... ISIS unlucky  

Dialogue they kill your people and you suggest dialogue what else a fire pit holding each other hands and dance around the fire and sing kumbaya? childish nonsense.

So if IRA tomorrow does a terrorist act and kills 4000 people in london you would suggest dialoge and international condemnation? are you joking me.

[magnkarl]

15 minutes ago, Jon said:

Seek a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian/ Israeli issue. Dialogue. International condemnation of Hamas. Strengthen defences. 

But a lasting peace in the region is not built on war, murder and genocide.

I've personally never been a fan of 'an eye for an eye' or in this case '100 Palestinian eyes for every Israeli eye'. 

But not even the most developed democracies in the world ever solves terrorism with dialogue, it’s a naive stance to expect Israel to do that when we’re not even capable of it ourselves.

I’m a fan of what was done to Al Qaeda, send in the special ops and deal with the people that did this, their leaders and their backers in Hezbollah and Iran, and start making the lives of ordinary Palestinians so good that Hamas and Iran won’t have their current sway over the population.

[Chindie]

We didn't carpet bomb Belfast when the IRA was blowing up pubs.

The reaction was complicated and difficult, and there were things done in it that shame both sides to that conflict, but ultimately it was brought to a close with a dialogue, round a table.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable?

Your question starts with a condition. We have to ask whether that condition is both legitimate and practical/ possible. My answer would be that it is legitimate to want to eliminate Hamas, but that it is neither practical nor possible to do it by the means chosen. Further, the means chosen is both radicalising for a new generation of anti Israel terrorists, against international humanitarian law and beyond abhorrent in terms of its impact on Palestinian civilians.

Your question should therefore be a different one. It should be “how, without killing and maiming thousands of innocents can Israel eliminate Hamas and its fighters?” .

That is also a difficult question to answer, but there is an answer. By refraining from the obvious action, of mass bombing, Israel can demonstrate great responsibility and control to the world and thereby garner great support for much more specifically targeted actions, using international support, intelligence, targeted hit squads and special forces, diplomacy and so on, not just against Hamas fighters, but (apart from hit squads) against Hamas’s supporters outside Palestine and the West Bank.

[chrisp65]

11 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

So if IRA tomorrow does a terrorist act and kills 4000 people in london you would suggest dialoge and international condemnation? are you joking me.

 

No you’re right, I think the only way to stop pub bombings and Enniskillen and Omagh and Manchester would be to kettle every catholic family in to Derry and then bomb the **** out of the place. 

It’s the only possible solution. You’ve convinced me.

 

[Jon]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

But not even the most developed democracies in the world ever solves terrorism with dialogue

IRA / good Friday agreement.

[Jon]

21 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

 

So if IRA tomorrow does a terrorist act and kills 4000 people in london you would suggest dialoge and international condemnation? are you joking me.

Correct.  I don't think you solve a terrorism problem with more, amplified terrorism in return

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

No you’re right, I think the only way to stop pub bombings and Enniskillen and Omagh and Manchester would be to kettle every catholic family in to Derry and then bomb the **** out of the place. 

It’s the only possible solution. You’ve convinced me.

 

It’s not remotely comparable and is an invalid (IMO) analogy, the situation in Northern Ireland. That said, you’re right that in the end talking is the only way this stops.

[bickster]

4 hours ago, Jareth said:

Who else behaves like Israel? They’re hitting ambulances. Absolute bastards. 

Do you really want a list?
The answer is lots of countries, many in the same region, oh and Russia

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, Jon said:

IRA / good Friday agreement.

After how many years of fighting, deaths and bombings?