Genie Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Creating 2 new armies because all the original soldiers are dead. Not sure we should be especially worried. They have a lot less kit and good quality personnel now than when they started too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: Feels like watching a car crash in slow motion. Russia are all in. We are not. We don't need to be "all in". NATO is vastly superior in numbers and ability. We also have non-NATO allies who we can rely upon. Russia is surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned. That's the whole crux of the problem. Russia thinks its a superpower but it's not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 21 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21 (edited) Look. The population of Russia is (was 143m). How many of them are half starved peasants? How many proper fit fighting age men are left after 2 years of well publicised cannon fodder war? How many have fled the country. 143m less the dead and left. Population of UK + Germany is 150m Population of The EU is 447m 447m of people not decimated by war v 143m of people on their knees from war. This narrative of Russia having an endless supply of manpower is just wrong. If they create 2 new armies you can bet they're staffed by other disbanded armies, children and old men. Don't fall for the propaganda. Edited March 21 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 NATO v Russia. This is before Sweden joined. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293174/nato-russia-military-comparison/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 The expansion of NATO has dealt a huge blow to Russia. Their main naval bases against NATO are Murmansk, St Petersburg and Crimea. Murmansk is supplied by a single road and single railway that run parallel to the Finish border. It runs through several hundred miles of snowy forests and mountains. Finland's armed forces could destroy both with relative ease. That's why Putin needs a huge force to protect the border. Without the supply lines Murmansk would need to be supplied by air and/or sea. Its iced up during the winter and transport planes are sitting ducks for NATO. St Petersburg is at the eastern end of the Baltic. The Baltic is now completely surrounded by NATO. Even if Russia ships/subs reached the western end of the Baltic they still have to navigate the narrow exit through the Danish islands. St Petersburg is also within artillery range of NATO. The Black Sea fleet based in Crimea was once a fearsome force. Its now hiding in ports to avoid the mighty Ukrainian navy of zero warships. Even if it recovered, the Black Sea is almost surrounded by NATO and Ukraine. Its access is also completely controlled by Turkey. Putin has effectively killed his own navy. Its great to see. (pardon the pun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 21 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21 6 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: The expansion of NATO has dealt a huge blow to Russia. Their main naval bases against NATO are Murmansk, St Petersburg and Crimea. Murmansk is supplied by a single road and single railway that run parallel to the Finish border. It runs through several hundred miles of snowy forests and mountains. Finland's armed forces could destroy both with relative ease. That's why Putin needs a huge force to protect the border. Without the supply lines Murmansk would need to be supplied by air and/or sea. Its iced up during the winter and transport planes are sitting ducks for NATO. St Petersburg is at the eastern end of the Baltic. The Baltic is now completely surrounded by NATO. Even if Russia ships/subs reached the western end of the Baltic they still have to navigate the narrow exit through the Danish islands. St Petersburg is also within artillery range of NATO. The Black Sea fleet based in Crimea was once a fearsome force. Its now hiding in ports to avoid the mighty Ukrainian navy of zero warships. Even if it recovered, the Black Sea is almost surrounded by NATO and Ukraine. Its access is also completely controlled by Turkey. Putin has effectively killed his own navy. Its great to see. (pardon the pun) Which is why what he's done is just insane. A mad man shouting at the moon. They would have been far better served working with their neighbours, integrating with the world, which is what they were doing pretty well before the flip. They had enormous resources and masses of cheap labour. They could have been the new workshop of the world churning out the machinery for the energy transition for example. A China light. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 7 minutes ago, sidcow said: Which is why what he's done is just insane. A mad man shouting at the moon. They would have been far better served working with their neighbours, integrating with the world, which is what they were doing pretty well before the flip. They had enormous resources and masses of cheap labour. They could have been the new workshop of the world churning out the machinery for the energy transition for example. A China light. They have all the materials to be knocking out cheap car batteries to the worlds car manufacturers… but nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 2 hours ago, magnkarl said: We need to equip Ukraine and let them deal with Russia they way they’re currently doing, it’s the best investment we’ll make for hundreds of years, and will deter the likes of China from trying something. Russia won’t attack NATO no matter how many times people say it. If European countries overpower Russia so much why don't they just enter the war on the Ukrainian side and obliterate all Russian soldiers in Ukraine? That's what should be done and what would really deter China. At the moment Ukraine is just being left hung out to dry and has already suffered thousands of unnecessary deaths. I agree as you say that Russia won't attack NATO or use nukes under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 7 hours ago, villa89 said: If European countries overpower Russia so much why don't they just enter the war on the Ukrainian side and obliterate all Russian soldiers in Ukraine? Putin would portray it as an invasion of Russia by NATO. That's a large step towards a nuclear war. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Putin would portray it as an invasion of Russia by NATO. That's a large step towards a nuclear war. plus, the powers that be want a slow painful death of Russia not a quick bullet to the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 9 hours ago, villa89 said: If European countries overpower Russia so much why don't they just enter the war on the Ukrainian side and obliterate all Russian soldiers in Ukraine? That's what should be done and what would really deter China. At the moment Ukraine is just being left hung out to dry and has already suffered thousands of unnecessary deaths. I agree as you say that Russia won't attack NATO or use nukes under any circumstances. As people said, NATO can't attack Russia, it would give Vlad excuses to fire off nukes. What we can do is to support Putin's non-aligned enemies. Ukraine have played a blinder in this regard, and it's about time we get our #¤%#¤ together and keep up the aid. If Biden wins the election I don't see Russia moving much further, and that they'll likely have to negotiate their way out of the war. If Trump wins it's up to Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand to carry the load. We are slowly waking up (see France) to the fact that this is a possibility. Turn it around and think about it this way. Ukraine have essentially fought a would be 'superpower' to a complete standstill, hurt their economy, taken out their biggest trade associations, decimated their fleet and shown other authoritarian regimes that military might doesn't necessarily translate well in an invasion, all with an army with mostly old equipment, some donated NATO stuff and few artillery rounds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 3 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Putin would portray it as an invasion of Russia by NATO. That's a large step towards a nuclear war. Putin uses the bluff of firing a nuke to deter NATO from actually helping Ukraine properly. And that's all it is, a bluff. Putin isn't stupid, he knows in the instant he fires a nuke anywhere it's the end for him and Russia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 26 minutes ago, magnkarl said: As people said, NATO can't attack Russia, it would give Vlad excuses to fire off nukes. NATO wouldn't be attacking Russia. All NATO actions would be on Ukrainian land as determined by International Law. Its doesn't matter if Putin gets upset, there isn't anything he can do when he's so grossly overpowered. That was his whole plan all along invading Ukraine, invade a country that you are vastly superior to and then use the threat of nukes to keep anyone from helping them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, villa89 said: That was his whole plan all along invading Ukraine, invade a country that you are vastly superior to and then use the threat of nukes to keep anyone from helping them. And look how it's failed. He's hinted at nuclear war if: Any country interfers with the SMO NATO allows its citizens to join the Ukrainian Army NATO arms Ukraine NATO provides targetting data to Ukraine NATO arms Ukraine with long range weapons NATO arms Ukraine with tanks NATO arms Ukraine with jet fighters NATO troops enter Ukraine Every red line he's drawn NATO has jumped across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 22 VT Supporter Share Posted March 22 40 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: And look how it's failed. He's hinted at nuclear war if: Any country interfers with the SMO NATO allows its citizens to join the Ukrainian Army NATO arms Ukraine NATO provides targetting data to Ukraine NATO arms Ukraine with long range weapons NATO arms Ukraine with tanks NATO arms Ukraine with jet fighters NATO troops enter Ukraine Every red line he's drawn NATO has jumped across. Which suggests they know damn well putting boots on the ground and shooting Russian troops WOULD be a step too far, or they would have done it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 40 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: And look how it's failed. He's hinted at nuclear war if: Any country interfers with the SMO NATO allows its citizens to join the Ukrainian Army NATO arms Ukraine NATO provides targetting data to Ukraine NATO arms Ukraine with long range weapons NATO arms Ukraine with tanks NATO arms Ukraine with jet fighters NATO troops enter Ukraine Every red line he's drawn NATO has jumped across. All 20 of them isn't really making a difference. NATO might be ignoring his red lines but they aren't actually doing anything other than the bare minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 3 minutes ago, sidcow said: Which suggests they know damn well putting boots on the ground and shooting Russian troops WOULD be a step too far, or they would have done it by now. The reason they don't put boots on the ground is that the reality is that NATO doesn't really care about Ukraine, or how many people die there. It suits them to have an ongoing war that weakens Russia hugely and has little impact on Western economies. NATO couldn't be scared of Russia, they know how weak the Russian army is. Edited March 22 by villa89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Putin is probably quite frustrated that the inflation shocks on the West are settling down now. Knowing Russia is on a war footing and everyone else outside of Ukraine is back to business as normal must really piss him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 22 Administrator Share Posted March 22 16 minutes ago, sidcow said: Which suggests they know damn well putting boots on the ground and shooting Russian troops WOULD be a step too far, or they would have done it by now. I'm not convinced their nuclear deterrent is actually functional any more. It doesn't need to be (and hasn't since we built to MAD). Nuclear weapons are bloody expensive to maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 22 VT Supporter Share Posted March 22 29 minutes ago, villa89 said: The reason they don't put boots on the ground is that the reality is that NATO doesn't really care about Ukraine, or how many people die there. It suits them to have an ongoing war that weakens Russia hugely and has little impact on Western economies. NATO couldn't be scared of Russia, they know how weak the Russian army is. An ongoing war in Europe is not suiting anyone. Its hurting Europe a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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